Antarctic Ice Sheet Collapse

[Berzerker]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/mar/26/poles.antarctica

Some choice quotes from the article:

A vast hunk of floating ice has broken away from the Antarctic peninsula, threatening the collapse of a much larger ice shelf behind it, in a development that has shocked climate scientists.

Like this hasn't happened before? "Shocked" that an ice sheet hanging out over the water at the height of summer breaks off into the ocean? Hell, with global warming I'm "shocked" there's any ice sheet overhanging the ocean. Not really, read on...

The collapsing shelf suggests that climate change could be forcing change much more quickly than scientists had predicted.

Mother Nature dont care much for predictions, but read on and we'll see.

The shedding of peripheral floating ice shelves has occurred elsewhere on the peninsula, allowing inland ice to move towards the sea and cause rising sea levels.

Which is a natural process that happens regardless of our existence. But have sea levels risen? No, whats going on?

Some areas of the frozen continent have been cooler in recent years, and have added ice through accumulated snowfall. This year, the thin floating layer of sea ice that forms each austral winter and fades in summer has in fact been larger than usual, in contrast to the Arctic.

But in other parts — such as the West Antarctic ice sheet — ice is being lost to the sea.

Oh, thats why sea levels haven't risen - its actually colder down there than "predicted" (?) and more sea water is being trapped in the ice. And whats that about the extent of sea ice being larger than "usual"? Hmm... That shouldn't happen with global warming. I mean, I can see why global warming would increase precipitation thereby feeding the Antarctic ice sheet(s) more snow and icepack actually lowering sea levels, but sea ice should not at the same time be extending further out from Antarctica.

predictions

 

[Trajan12]

LIES! Lies and Myths! Al Gore be damned!

 

[MrCynical]

Which is a natural process that happens regardless of our existence. But have sea levels risen? No, whats going on?

If the ice is already floating in the sea, melting it will have no effect whatever on the sea level. That's basic physics, and has nothing to do with ice formation elsewhere.

The breakdown of the sea ice is not in itself the main problem - it's when it moves on to the ice cap on land, which will increase sea levels when it melts.

 

[brennan]

Love the skepticism. And the omissions, here are some of the juicy bits you missed out:

Satellite images show that about 160 square miles of the Wilkins ice shelf has been lost since the end of February

The Antarctic peninsula, which stretches north from the frozen continent towards South America, has experienced unprecedented warming over the past 50 years.

Nope no warming here, move right along folks...

Six other ice shelves have already been lost entirely — the Prince Gustav Channel, Larsen Inlet, Larsen B, Wordie, Muller and Jones shelves.

Vaughan said: "It's bigger than any ice shelf we've seen retreating before, and in the long term it could be a taste of other things to come. It is another indication of the impact that climate change is having on the region."

Tch, but this is all scaremongering obviously...

 

[Masquerouge]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/mar/26/poles.antarctica

Some choice quotes from the article:



Like this hasn't happened before? "Shocked" that an ice sheet hanging out over the water at the height of summer breaks off into the ocean? Hell, with global warming I'm "shocked" there's any ice sheet overhanging the ocean. Not really, read on...



Mother Nature dont care much for predictions, but read on and we'll see.



Which is a natural process that happens regardless of our existence. But have sea levels risen? No, whats going on?



Oh, thats why sea levels haven't risen - its actually colder down there than "predicted" (?) and more sea water is being trapped in the ice. And whats that about the extent of sea ice being larger than "usual"? Hmm... That shouldn't happen with global warming. I mean, I can see why global warming would increase precipitation thereby feeding the Antarctic ice sheet(s) more snow and icepack actually lowering sea levels, but sea ice should not at the same time be extending further out from Antarctica.

predictions

Well according to other articles about that topic:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/03/25/antartica.collapse.ap/index.html

"It's an event we don't get to see very often," said Ted Scambos, lead scientist at the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado

While icebergs naturally break away from the mainland, collapses like this are unusual but are happening more frequently in recent decades, British Antarctic Survey scientist Vaughan said.

Scientists said they are not concerned about a rise in sea level from the latest event in Antarctica, but say it's a sign of worsening global warming.

And until I know more about your credentials, I'll trust what the scientists say over what you say.

 

[emzie]

The sharp lines in the ice (watch the video) are pretty friggin cool.

 

[Berzerker]

If the ice is already floating in the sea, melting it will have no effect whatever on the sea level. That's basic physics, and has nothing to do with ice formation elsewhere.

Sure it does, as ice melts it results in more precipitation which feeds ice sheets. Thats why sea levels actually lowered during the warm period between 1900-1940 and rose during the cool period 1940-1970. The problem, as you pointed out, is not the sea ice melting though, its the concern that the land-based ice sheet behind the sea ice will flow to the sea more readily and break off and melt. But thats what happens naturally.

Global warming should cause ice lobes and glaciers to retreat and they're concerned that the Antarctic ice sheet is too active.

 

[skadistic]

Is this the same global warming that has seen record cold in many parts of the world?

 

[Masquerouge]

Global warming should cause ice lobes and glaciers to retreat and they're concerned that the Antarctic ice sheet is too active.

Is this the same global warming that has seen record cold in many parts of the world?

You're not seriously making the "global warming? But it's cold here!" argument, right? Since you're so interested in climate change, you do know that we're speaking of an average global rise in temperature, not a rise in temperature everywhere?

Because if you don't, you just lost all credibility...

 

[brennan]

Global warming should cause ice lobes and glaciers to retreat

Retreat of glaciers since 1850

@ Masquerouge: yes, yes he is.

 

[Berzerker]

Love the skepticism. And the omissions, here are some of the juicy bits you missed out:

Nope no warming here, move right along folks...

Umm...Brennan, this happened at the height of the summer heat. Thats what sea ice is supposed to do if the ice sheet behind it is active. Did you miss the part where the scientists say the ice shelf has been larger than usual and that "parts" of Antarctica are colder?

Tch, but this is all scaremongering obviously...

Making a big deal over melting sea ice during an interglacial is silly, and judging by the hysteria, sure its scaremongering.

 

[Leonel]

You guys this is super serial! If we don't keep unconditionally giving the environmentalists millions and millions of dollars in research money, the Earth's temperature WILL reach over 100C within 5 years based on the current climate trend of 2C per month and I don't see this going down any time soon!

 

[LesCanadiens]

Which is a natural process that happens regardless of our existence. But have sea levels risen? No, whats going on?

Sea levels have risen by about one foot in the past fifty years, which is far and away greater than any natural rate of sea level increase. What all of you deniers seem to be unable to grasp is that natural climate change takes place very, very slowly, to the point that it shouldn't even be noticeable to scientists over the course of one human lifetime. But in the past fifty years, we've seen temperature increases of about 1 degree C, and increase of CO2 concentration by well over 30% and sea level rises of about a foot, among other things, which are simply way too great to be caused by natural factors.

Do your research before trying to grind your political axe.

 

[Berzerker]

Masquerade

You're not seriously making the "global warming? But it's cold here!" argument, right? Since you're so interested in climate change, you do know that we're speaking of an average global rise in temperature, not a rise in temperature everywhere?

Because if you don't, you just lost all credibility...

Why are you quoting me and responding to someone else?

Brennan

@ Masquerouge: yes, yes he is.

Really? Can you quote me because Masquerade sure didn't? Oh, and citing the past 150 years is If we were looking at 1400-1850 many glaciers were advancing because of the mini ice age DURING an interglacial when the world is warming NATURALLY. But like I said, retreating glaciers elsewhere do not tell us about the Antarctic ice sheet which is obviously very active.

 

[skadistic]

You're not seriously making the "global warming? But it's cold here!" argument, right? Since you're so interested in climate change, you do know that we're speaking of an average global rise in temperature, not a rise in temperature everywhere?

Because if you don't, you just lost all credibility...

I'm seriously making it been a record cold year world wide argument.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071219/COMMENTARY/10575140

Shhh don't tell the goreites.

 

[brennan]

Umm...Brennan, this happened at the height of the summer heat.

Are you seriously trying to pass this off as some kind of totally expected annual event? Did you read the article? Are you aware that some of these Ice sheets have been around for thousands of years and are now vanishing virtually overnight?

During 2002-01-31–2002-03-07 the Larsen B sector collapsed and broke up, 3,250 km² of ice 220 m thick disintegrated, meaning an ice shelf covering an area comparable in size to the state of Rhode Island disappeared in a single season.[3] Larsen B could have been stable for up to 12,000 years, essentially the entire Holocene period since the last ice age

When they say the Wilkins Ice Shelf is in danger of breaking away from Antarctica they don't mean 'it's summer down in Antarctica' they mean a geographical feature that has been in permanent residence since it was discovered in 1910 is about to disappear. Why? because average temperatures down there have increased:

about 0.5 °C per decade since the late 1940's

and the ice is melting:

recent data collected by an international team of investigators through satellite-based radar measurements suggests that the overall ice-sheet mass balance in Antarctica is increasingly negative.

 

[EnlightenmentHK]

Sea levels have risen. Or did you miss some of the stories the last few years on disappearing pacific islands? Ice sheets already on the ocean do not contribute to ocean levels rising, since frozen water already takes up more space as it is. Its the ice that's overland (Greenland Ice sheets, antarctic ice sheets on the actual land of the continent, etc) that will lead to ocean levels rising.

And Global Warming does not exclude the possibility of localized lower temperatures here and there. Its just that the overall global trend is upwards. The localized cooling in parts of the Antarctic have been attributed to the hole in the Ozone layer in that area. One catastrophe helping to cancel out another, but only at an extremely localized level.

Of course these are things that anyone seriously attempting to criticize global warming should already know.

 

[LesCanadiens]

This is characteristic of global warming deniers, holocaust deniers, creationists, 9/11 conspiracy theorists, and others. They pick one little aspect of the concept in question which, on the surface, doesn't appear to fit in with the greater concept (in this case, Berzerker's allegations that during a previous natural warming period glaciers grew), and without bothering to actually do some research into this phenomenon to discover the true nature behind it, they instantly proclaim that the whole idea of man made climate change must be a hoax. It's like holocaust deniers that point at a brick from Auschwitz and say "there's no cyanide or zyklon-b here, so the holocaust was a hoax."

Tell me, Berzerker, can you provide a citation that "many" glaciers 1400-1850 advanced in spite of the natural warming period of that time? Can you quantify what "many" exactly means, and prove that at least a majority of these grew in areas that had substantial temperature increase? 'Cause if we're talking about two or three glaciers that advanced in certain parts of the globe where temperatures did not increase (remember, we're talking about an increase in global average temperatures, not an absolute and immense increase everywhere), then your point is entirely bankrupt.

Perhaps you can also prove what this has to do with climate change today. Perhaps you can also explain how the recent dramatic increase in global average temperatures (remember, one degree over fifty years is dramatic when compared to natural rate of average temperature increase/decrease) correlates with the increase of CO2 emissions and sea level rise? And no, the sun's output has not substantially increased.

Also, ice melting feeds further evaporation which feeds increased precipitation, but that doesn't feed the growth of ice sheets in the polar regions since those regions receive such minimal precipitation anyways.

And yeah, I know I just godwined this thread. I don't care.

 

[skadistic]

You people are global cooling deniers.

 

[brennan]

Berzerker, my link replied to you, my words referred to skadistic.

I'm seriously making it been a record cold year world wide argument.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071219/COMMENTARY/10575140

Shhh don't tell the goreites.

Mention of Al Gore, check, link to opinion piece, check.
Opinion piece is factually incorrect, check:

Antarctica is getting colder. Not according to people with thermometers it isn't.

Cites irrelevant facts, check:

Neither the intensity nor the frequency of hurricanes has increased. Hurricanes are caused by ocean water heat, which is only very minorly affected by climate change.

And finds the following:

In 2007, hundreds of people died, not from global warming, but from cold weather hazards.

...Ignoring the Heatwave in Europe:

Over 500 deaths in Hungary were attributed to the heatwave

...and let's not talk about the 2003 heatwave in France:

French heat deaths 'up to 3,000'

...