Antarctic Ice Sheet Collapse

[Berzerker]

Sea levels have risen by about one foot in the past fifty years, which is far and away greater than any natural rate of sea level increase.

Thats not even close to true, sea levels rose dramatically at the end of the ice age - 66 ft over 2 centuries (and not gradual). And that was just one of many rapid increases in sea level. But as I said, sea levels did rise between 1940-1970 even though we were in a cooling trend. How does that happen? Less evaporation = less rain and snow = less water transfered to ice sheets.

What all of you deniers seem to be unable to grasp is that natural climate change takes place very, very slowly, to the point that it shouldn't even be noticeable to scientists over the course of one human lifetime.

"Deniers"... Thats not true either, we have evidence that the mass extinction of ice age fauna at the end of the last ice age was brought on by a rapid increase in temperatures (ice core and coral data) far in excess of what we've experienced the last 150 years and other evidence of an ice age hitting us ~115,000 years ago within a generation (pollen from France).

Do your research before trying to grind your political axe.

I have no axe to grind and I do my research, dont accuse me of being dishonest because I'm not convinced by the doom and gloom predictions of "environmentalists". When Al Gore was on Keith Olbermann, he was given the chance to respond to specific criticisms of his book and Gore attacked his critics instead accusing them of dishonesty. I detect a pattern... You clearly dont know what you're talking about, a 1 ft rise in sea levels cant be matched by nature

 

[brennan]

Thats not even close to true, sea levels rose dramatically at the end of the ice age - 66 ft over 2 centuries (and not gradual). And that was just one of many rapid increases in sea level. But as I said, sea levels did rise between 1940-1970 even though we were in a cooling trend. How does that happen? Less evaporation = less rain and snow = less water transfered to ice sheets.

You mean Meltwater pulse 1A?

During this pulse the sea level rose by about 25 m in some parts of the northern hemisphere, over a period of less than 500 years That's not two centuries?!.[2] The source of the meltwater is often believed to be a collapsing ice sheet *ahem* probably in Antarctica[2]

 

[skadistic]

Berzerker, my link replied to you, my words referred to skadistic.

Mention of Al Gore, check, link to opinion piece, check.
Opinion piece is factually incorrect, check:Are you sure its incorrect?

Cites irrelevant facts, check:And what exactly was irreverent? All the experts told us that global warming would equal big bad hurricanes. They were wrong. So when the experts are wrong it irrelevant. Check.

And finds the following:

...Ignoring the Heatwave in Europe:Was it ignored? Are you sure?

...and let's not talk about the 2003 heatwave in France:

...

Speaking of irrelevant why bring up 2003 in a response to 2007? So yeah lets not talk about it since it really is irrelevant to 2007.

http://newsbusters.org/node/11847
Since you like wiki so much
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_U.S._Freeze_of_2007

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2008/20080313_coolest.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSL0736326820070807?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7243704.stm

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-3-6/67108.html

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...t-winter-leaves-926-dead-so-far_10018248.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Central_Asia_energy_crisis

 

[Berzerker]

Are you seriously trying to pass this off as some kind of totally expected annual event?

Of course not, its a process and its cyclical. I can defend my arguments but dont expect me to defend your nonsense. It doesn't happen every year because it takes time for the ice sheet behind the sea ice shelves to expand. In a few years or decades a new ice shelf will form and maybe in 100 years (or who knows) that ice shelf will break away. Or maybe this ice shelf aint going any where, if the break occurs too late in the summer the ice shelf will become trapped and rejoined to the ice sheet.

Did you read the article? Are you aware that some of these Ice sheets have been around for thousands of years and are now vanishing virtually overnight?

Yes, I read the article. We dont know how long they've been there, those are guesstimates. But YES I expect them to melt away during a lengthy interglacial period. Thats what they're supposed to do

When they say the Wilkins Ice Shelf is in danger of breaking away from Antarctica they don't mean 'it's summer down in Antarctica' they mean a geographical feature that has been in permanent residence since it was discovered in 1910 is about to disappear. Why? because average temperatures down there have increased:

Much of the sea ice melts during the height of summer. You dont think the season is relevant? There's a reason why these break ups occur during summer.

 

[Masquerouge]

Global warming should cause ice lobes and glaciers to retreat and they're concerned that the Antarctic ice sheet is too active.

Masquerade

Why are you quoting me and responding to someone else?

The way I read your comment, you said "global warming should cause glaciers to retreat, but yet the Antartic ice sheet is too active", and to me that's akin to Skad saying "global warming, but it's cold here!".

And again, explain to me why I should trust what you're saying over what the scientists are saying? Cos right now, degrading my user name is not exactly the best way to show your scientific credentials...

 

[brennan]

Speaking of irrelevant why bring up 2003 in a response to 2007? So yeah lets not talk about it since it really is irrelevant to 2007. Ah, so you're going to insist on talking about one data point, not trends, gotcha.

http://newsbusters.org/node/11847
A blog that 'exposes and combats liberal media bias' reports on nearly record low temperatures in Alaska? Feeble.
Since you like wiki so much
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_U.S._Freeze_of_2007
This stuff is in the realm of anecdote =/= evidence you know...

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2008/20080313_coolest.html
Coolest WINTER since 2001? Man that craps on 10,000 year old ice shelves disappearing huh?

http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSL0736326820070807?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true
Whose side are you on? "The world experienced a series of record-breaking weather events in early 2007, from flooding in Asia to heatwaves in Europe and snowfall in South Africa, the United Nations weather agency said on Tuesday"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7243704.stm
Anecdote.
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-3-6/67108.html
Snow in Baghdad. Attributed by your source to El Nino.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...t-winter-leaves-926-dead-so-far_10018248.html
Same anecdote as before, yes it was a bad winter in central Asia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Central_Asia_energy_crisis
See above.

So as long as you only talk about one year, cherry pick your anec...i mean data and ignore long the long term trends.. it's colder. Right.

 

[brennan]

Much of the sea ice melts during the height of summer. You dont think the season is relevant? There's a reason why these break ups occur during summer.

Hello, it's been there since 1910... this is not a seasonal event... hello... is anyone in?

 

[Berzerker]

You mean Meltwater pulse 1A?

Oh gee, your source says 25m in 500 years and my source said 66 ft in 200 years. Masquerade said 1 ft over 50 years is unnatural. It aint...

 

[Berzerker]

Hello, it's been there since 1910... this is not a seasonal event... hello... is anyone in?

Jesus, read my posts before responding. I said the collapse of ice shelves during an interglacial is normal and takes time - decades or even centuries. The seasonal aspect is timed with the collapses, summer is when ice shelves are at their weakest.

 

[Masquerouge]

Masquerade said 1 ft over 50 years is unnatural. It aint...

I don't remember saying that, and please stop calling me Masquerade.

 

[Berzerker]

The way I read your comment, you said "global warming should cause glaciers to retreat, but yet the Antartic ice sheet is too active", and to me that's akin to Skad saying "global warming, but it's cold here!".

And again, explain to me why I should trust what you're saying over what the scientists are saying? Cos right now, degrading my user name is not exactly the best way to show your scientific credentials...

Sorry, Masquerouge (what the hell does that mean?).
I see, well, if we're gonna argue that global warming is melting Antarctica, then the regional temps down there matter. The ice sheet aint melting, its calving and thats natural when an ice sheet is active. Even the article said this ice sheet may just stay there because its too cold.

 

[Berzerker]

I don't remember saying that, and please stop calling me Masquerade.

Sorry, that was Lescanadiens. I got you frenchies confused

 

[emzie]

Speaking of irrelevant why bring up 2003 in a response to 2007? So yeah lets not talk about it since it really is irrelevant to 2007.

http://newsbusters.org/node/11847
Since you like wiki so much
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_U.S._Freeze_of_2007

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2008/20080313_coolest.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSL0736326820070807?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7243704.stm

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-3-6/67108.html

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...t-winter-leaves-926-dead-so-far_10018248.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Central_Asia_energy_crisis

Eh, single events don't speak to an over all picture. The European heat wave of 2003 was no more indicative of global warming than anything you propose being indicative of there being no global warming.

Personally, I think it's real, and I rather apathetic. Sure, stop it, fix it, whatever, just don't impact my standard of living.

 

[Berzerker]

Well according to other articles about that topic:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/03/25/antartica.collapse.ap/index.html

And until I know more about your credentials, I'll trust what the scientists say over what you say.

What are they saying thats different from what I said? Are you talking about their predictions and assertions or the facts? Fact: this happens regardless of our existence. Fact: ice sheets expand and when they expand out over water they break up and melt.

 

[Masquerouge]

What are they saying thats different from what I said? Are you talking about their predictions and assertions or the facts? Fact: this happens regardless of our existence. Fact: ice sheets expand and when they expand out over water they break up and melt.

You've lost me then. I thought your opening post was critical of scientific consensus.

 

[Berzerker]

I'm critical of predictions that ignore natural cycles or attribute the effects of those cycles to mankind. Some people say global warming is the culprit and I say this is normal for an active ice sheet.

 

[Masquerouge]

I'm critical of predictions that ignore natural cycles or attribute the effects of those cycles to mankind. Some people say global warming is the culprit and I say this is normal for an active ice sheet.

I would say it's normal, were it not for the fact that the ice sheet is shrinking every year and the ice lost in the summer is not made up in the winter, as it used to.

 

[The Yankee]

link

A huge chunk of ice that's been attached to Antarctica for as long as 1,500 years, has broken loose. Scientists are documenting the break-up with video and satellite images. This is a rare look at the effects of global warming, that bring with it an urgent warning.

It may be a warming, but the fact that this block of ice was attached 1500 years ago would suggest that something cyclical may be at work.

 

[skadistic]

Ah, so you're going to insist on talking about one data point, not trends, gotcha.

Trends? it was a trend that went through the whole winter. Picking and chosing data points works for the global warming so it works for me too.

A blog that 'exposes and combats liberal media bias' reports on nearly record low temperatures in Alaska? Feeble.

Feeble? How is pointing out its cold feeble?

This stuff is in the realm of anecdote =/= evidence you know...

I know it was cold and so do they but you dismiss the facts all you want. Its a record cold winter globally.

Coolest WINTER since 2001? Man that craps on 10,000 year old ice shelves disappearing huh?

No it simple bolsters my point that it was record cold winter.

Whose side are you on? "The world experienced a series of record-breaking weather events in early 2007, from flooding in Asia to heatwaves in Europe and snowfall in South Africa, the United Nations weather agency said on Tuesday"

I'm on the side that it was a record cold winter.

Anecdote.

Yup saying was really cold.

Snow in Baghdad. Attributed by your source to El Nino.

Yup it was really cold to. See the theme yet?

Same anecdote as before, yes it was a bad winter in central Asia

It was a record cold year type of bad.

See above.

Oh I see. I see you will do anything to dismiss it was cold.

So as long as you only talk about one year, cherry pick your anec...i mean data and ignore long the long term trends.. it's colder. Right.

So as long as 100 out of millions is enough to prove global warming 1 out 10 proves global cooling. And your right all those records colds are just anecdotes obviously no one took measurements.... But since you want to ignore its been hotter then it is now while man was around and before the industrial era.......

augurey
Eh, single events don't speak to an over all picture. The European heat wave of 2003 was no more indicative of global warming than anything you propose being indicative of there being no global warming.

Personally, I think it's real, and I rather apathetic. Sure, stop it, fix it, whatever, just don't impact my standard of living.

But if the warmists can use 50 years to make a point its warming despite it cooling and warming several times in the last 1000 I can use even less time to show them that its cooling despite the last few years of warming.

 

[GenMarshall]

An ice sheet the size of my state plops into the water?! We must build freezer units down there to stop the ice cap from melting!!