Anti-Roman Strategies

[Scaramanga]

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone has any good strategies for dealing with the Romans. Their unique unit, the praetorian (replaces swordsman, 8 strength), typically fills players with dread or rapaciousness, depending on if they are playing against or as the Romans. So how can one stand up to this simulated version of one the greatest armed forces of the antiquity? Share your tactics/strategies here.

Note: This thread is for dealing with the Romans as they are now. It is NOT for: "how can the praetorian be nerfed?"

Strategies I've used (duel, always war):

- early attrition (especially of iron)
- play as protective (especially china)
- build great wall

Strategies I'd like to try:

-build chichen itza

 

[Infantry#14]

prateorians with strength 8 are pretty tough. To counter them,

1) I would pillage their iron source
2) have multiple civ attack him (or just another 1)
3) get crossbow (9 vs 8)

 

[Bhruic]

Well, before answering the question, I need to know - are you talking vs the AI, or vs Human players? The answer is vastly different.

Bh

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Arrrrrrr... Given my avatar and username, I don't like the idea of this at all...

BUT, there are several ways of dealing with the Romans. Axemen are probably the most useful early counter (give them the shock promotion for extra oomph), and pillaging iron is always a good idea. If they already have lots of legions running around you're going to have a hard time taking their cities before catapults. If you just want to get them to leave you alone, this isn't important, though.

Best way to deal with Rome: become an ally!

 

[druidravi]

The designers developed it so that any one of the early resource horse/copper could help you defend. Especially that +100% attack vs axeman for chariot. later swordsman can be countered by horse archers. However they forget abut preatorians. If your neibhour is rome and you don;t find copper , go rush to iron working and hop you find iron before he does. If no iron as well. It's gg. there's no way horse units can deal with preatorians. Still if you want to survive total annihilation ( total because you are doomed anyways) . Mass archers with city garrison and try to research towards construction. if you survive till construction promote the catapults to barrage and suicide one every turn on their stacks. Another thing ,since you would research iron working you would know where his iron is . A mass force of chariots/ha's or even archers if its a hill can be sacced to disconnect that iron. If however he buids a city on iron you might try to cut roads between his capital and iron city. If he founds his city on iron which is connected to his capital and you have no metal press Alt QQ.
If you have copper/iron though mass axes will help just don't go on offernsive this era. Wait for medeival times crossbows/maces /cats to attack.

 

[axident]

Against AI: Instead of going for his cities with your first stack, go for his iron source. Pillage the roads leading to the iron source, too, to make it hard for Rome to rebuild even if you are forced to call for a peace treaty. The AI is terrible about rebuilding its iron quickly, so if you pillage both the road and iron, let alone the road, iron, and surrounding roads, it will take more than 10 turns for the iron to get re-hooked up. Just re-DoW and re-pillage. By then, you will probably have reinforcements arriving to deliver the knockout blow to the last Roman cities.

 

[kniteowl]

Problems with the Roman UU.. the answer go into world builder and... lol Kidding

Seriously? depends on your starting location, traits UUs, resources etc..

If your Aggressive, then your combat 1 axemen should be able to handle them easily as their only 1 promotion away from Shock

How close a neighbour are you? IF you have Copper within your capital's culture, you can just rush him before he even reaches IW.

Are you playing as the Inca's their UU comes WAY before Prats so if the Romans are close by, declare war immediately and just let 2-3 UUs Fortify outside his capital and prevent him from building settlers and workers, chance are he didn't settle on the iron it self.

Philosophical or Industrious? try to get a Great Engineer and Slingshot to Machinery for Crossbowmen.

Ivory nearby? Beeline to Construction ASAP, War Elephants are also 8 Str and are at even odds against the Prats.

If you have none of those, I'll try to be as nice to the Romans until their UU obsoletes then I'll back stab them.

 

[r_rolo1]

1)If you can, axerush him before IW.
2)If he already has IW and mine, pillage it.
3)If sneak war, axerush his SoD
4)If no metals, make archers like hell, beeline construction and hope that his praets go somewhere else ( pray a lot )

Of course, you can try to live peafully with the guy, even try to do of him your watchdog ( Julius is better for that than Augustus ), but I don't like to live on the edge of a knife...

 

[oyzar]

i think this was for sp as there the ai wont build great enough number to matter in face of massive stacks of axemen... In MP however how do you manage to get the praet player next door to not hit you? I had this happen in my last MP game. In fact i was kinda boxed in by him. I teched to maces while i build cats to prevent him from attacking and then went to town.

 

[Scaramanga]

Well, before answering the question, I need to know - are you talking vs the AI, or vs Human players? The answer is vastly different.

Bh

Let's hear both.

 

[pigswill]

You could always try being nice to the Romans.

 

[axident]

You could always try being nice to the Romans.

Or BE the Romans.

 

[gettingfat]

The axeman bonus given to chariots in Warlords actually make praets even more invincible. If horses are also available I usually fill 10-20% of my army with chariots (as cheap counter to axes and pillaging) and basically there is no effective counter to the praets till crossbows, which come quite late.

Either the cost of praets should be further raised by 5 to 50, or change them to 7 attack with +10% city attack (still very powerful).

Horse archers should be made somewhat more effective vs these melee units. For a good 50-hammer spent, what you get are some strength 6 units that can be easily killed by some cheap spears and can't even gain any advatange over other fortified melee units. Somebody forgot to tell the Firaxis game designer once upon a time there was a big jexk called Attila who laid waste to the Eastern Roman Empire with his strength 6 HA.

 

[axident]

The axeman bonus given to chariots in Warlords actually make praets even more invincible. If horses are also available I usually fill 10-20% of my army with chariots (as cheap counter to axes and pillaging) and basically there is no effective counter to the praets till crossbows, which come quite late.

Either the cost of praets should be further raised by 5 to 50, or change them to 7 attack with +10% city attack (still very powerful).

Horse archers should be made somewhat more effective vs these melee units. For a good 50-hammer spent, what you get are some strength 6 units that can be easily killed by some cheap spears and can't even gain any advatange over other fortified melee units. Somebody forgot to tell the Firaxis game designer once upon a time there was a big jexk called Attila who laid waste to the Eastern Roman Empire with his strength 6 HA.

Genghis was the biggest horse archer bastard around; Attila had nothing on him. Oh, and, just modify the game to your wishes if you don't like how it is now. You can also build larger quantities of HA's similar to how the AI Genghis tends to keshik-spam me.

 

[Bhruic]

If horses are also available I usually fill 10-20% of my army with chariots (as cheap counter to axes and pillaging) and basically there is no effective counter to the praets till crossbows, which come quite late.

In which case the "counter stack" merely needs to fill 10-20% of its stack with spears, and your "advantage" is gone.

Fighting the AI with Praets isn't very difficult - they won't build enough to seriously hamper you. A Catapult or two will collateral damage their stack enough that Axemen will win against them.

Against humans, on the other hand, there's very little you can do. You really need to adopt the same tactics that the Romans will use - rushing to Iron. You'll need to know where it is in order to shut theirs down. But if the Human player is smart (and we have to assume he is), he's going to build a city right on the iron. So your only real possibility is to rush him, assuming you are near enough. Straight to Copper, get it hooked up ASAP, and Axe rush before he can get Praets (in any significant number) out. He'll be rushing to Iron, so he'll have Bronze Working as well - if he has Copper too, you are screwed. If he doesn't, you'll be attacking Warriors (he won't have gone with Archery) and you'll win easily. Again, assuming everything works out.

Realistically, however, if you start near Romans in a mp game, you are most likely to go get screwed. Chock it up to the fact that the Praets are pretty much the most proportionally powerful UU in the game.

Bh

 

[Kietharr]

1) The AI is completely inept at using praetorians. They don't realize they're any different than swordsmen and they don't rush during the praetorian's golden age unless provoked. So, avoid war with Rome (Persia and Egypt as well if they have horses) until their UU is obsolete, making them on par with you.
2) If you find yourself in a situation where you are unable to avoid warring with a neighbor with one of those dominating early UUs, rush him before he gets the UU if possible, cripple his economy.
3) Against praets, defend with shock and combat axemen, they have pretty good odds if you're hitting praets out on flat land rather than letting them attack you.
4) If you are against a human, pray to whatever diety you believe in that they don't get IW before you cripple them. Human players dominate with Rome for a reason, they are always on the attack (good ones anyways, only noobs try for a nonviolent victory online).

 

[Ecofarm]

vs. human Rome: warrior rush and beg someone else to do so as well

or

Rome will grab extra capital for the win

 

[gettingfat]

In which case the "counter stack" merely needs to fill 10-20% of its stack with spears, and your "advantage" is gone.
Bh

That means I still force you to build fewer axes anyway with a few 25-hammer cheap units and indirectly cut down the threat to my praet stack. I can still use my chariots for opportunistic attack on some axes left unprotected, pillaging, suicidal attack and if by any luck, as field medics if they win any battle and promoted. I can guarantee you your army will move forward faster by diversifying a little bit, as long as praets are used as the staple units.

 

[Bhruic]

That means I still force you to build fewer axes anyway with a few 25-hammer cheap units and indirectly cut down the threat to my praet stack. I can still use my chariots for opportunistic attack on some axes left unprotected, pillaging, suicidal attack and if by any luck, as field medics if they win any battle and promoted. I can guarantee you your army will move forward faster by diversifying a little bit, as long as praets are used as the staple units.

If I'm building less Axes, then you're building less Praets. I'm not sure what advantage you think suicidal attacks are going to be - suiciding on Spears doesn't make it easier for your Praets, they won't be facing the Spears. Yes, you might get lucky and find the odd Axe unprotected, but if you are wandering around like that with your Chariots, they are fodder. Ditto with pillaging. And it's not like field medics were added with Warlords, so I'm not sure how that applies.

None of what you posted above does anything to make Praets "more invincible" via Warlords, which is what you originally claimed.

Bh

 

[gettingfat]

If I'm building less Axes, then you're building less Praets. I'm not sure what advantage you think suicidal attacks are going to be - suiciding on Spears doesn't make it easier for your Praets, they won't be facing the Spears. Yes, you might get lucky and find the odd Axe unprotected, but if you are wandering around like that with your Chariots, they are fodder. Ditto with pillaging. And it's not like field medics were added with Warlords, so I'm not sure how that applies.

None of what you posted above does anything to make Praets "more invincible" via Warlords, which is what you originally claimed.

Bh

Praets are 1-movement units. If you want to pillage you either want to leave some units behind or have your whole stack wait for you. By putting one or two chariots in your stack of praets you can advance and pillage at the same time. Making money and taking out the roads to slow down the reinforcement. Your stack will move faster. After you clean out some roads you may even pull out your chariots from your stack to do further damages behind the front line because the opponent spears will no longer able to easily reach your chariots, and these chariots can always go back to join the stack later.

When I say "field medics", I don't mean a specific promotion. You want one unit in your stack to have medic I to speed up the healing. You don't want to waste your praet promotion on Medic I. A mobile field healing unit is usually more versatile because it can catch up the stack after the injured units stay behind are healed.

Also those "I know you will build 3 chariots, so I'll build 2 spears in advance" statements a lot of time won't come true. When one sees Romans the typical reaction is to mass shock axemen. How do you know if your Roman enemies are going to mix in a couple of chariots in a particular stack?

You also don't necessary to "suicide" chariots by hitting well-defended cities. One way of suicide is to pull out a chariot to cut off some key roads (e.g. to the metal). If a spear comes out from the city to kill this chariot this spear is toasted. You trade 25 hammers for 35 hammers and some exp. Good deal. The key is you don't build many, and these chariots must be floating around with the praets.