Any tutorials on opening strategies?

[jblazer]

1. Is growth important at the start of the game and build a worker from 1pop or grow to size 2/3 first?
   
2. What civics do I go for? lots of the ancient/classical civics have negative effects so I don't even know if I should use them
3. How many workers do I need per city? I notice it takes a very long time to improve tiles in this mod.

And most importantly is there a link somewhere with some basic strategies for new players? I'm looking for strategies for Emperor and above. Also I don't want strategies that are for low levels cause they do openings that are greedy and don't work in harder games.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I don't think there is anything beyond the most basic advice I included with the installer. One thing of note though is, due to the balance being very different from vanilla, AI being far more aggressive and somewhat more competent, I'd recommend starting at a difficulty level lower than you're used to in vanilla, at least until you find your own feet in RI. I think the general opinion is that RI is 1-2 levels more difficult than comparable vanilla. As for the particular questions you're asking, here's my take (though you shouldn't take them for gospel, even though I'm the author, I'm playing in a rather relaxed manner and never higher than Monarch):

1. I usually let my first city reach at least size 2 first; remember that your improvement options might or might not be limited early on, depending on where you start.
2. Civics are designed in a way that it is almost always a net benefit to leave the starting ones (except Paganism, which is heavily dependent on where you're taking your civ religion-wise). Eliminating the obvious choices or no-gos was rather a priority, so in terms of later civics, it again depends heavily on your playstyle and strategic goals.
3. The time to improve starts slow (and can be tanked even more by certain civics), but later picks up with several key techs and civics. So I wouldn't say more than one-two except maybe really early on.

 

[jblazer]

Thanks and I really like your mod

Edit: I found the manual I didn't even know it existed, gonna read it now. I think it should be a sticky topic.
https://master.dl.sourceforge.net/p...ictus/Realism Invictus 3.5 Manual.pdf?viasf=1

 

[[Y]]

I've been playing on Emperor for the past 4-5 years, and here's my starting thoughts/strategies.

* Food and growth is important, but defending your starting city is more important.
* Soldiers are expensive to maintain, only train what you need (though you will need a fair amount to compete with AI)
* Starting location and resources matter significantly
* Settling many cities fast is a sure way to bankrupt yourself into a death spiral. But if you don't settle a spot of land, the AI likely will.
* Always have a vision and a plan.

My usual approach:

1. My first 3-4 researched techs are about getting a food source, immediately followed by woodworking to train militia. If I have crops nearby, great. I study agriculture, and then immediately go for tool making and wood working. If there are cattle/sheep/pigs, then I instead go for animal husbandry first and only then go for wood working. If I don't have crops nearby in the starting city radius, or if there is wine, I use the wheel to get to animal husbandry instead of agriculture. If there are neither crops nor livestock nearby, GG. Game's over and time to start again.
2. Military is expensive, only train what you need. Warriors become obsolete very fast but militia can be used for a while to come, so training warriors early on is a waste. Going straight for militia will allow you to build a decent defense before any threats (barbs or aggressive civs) show up without wasting build points or cash on useless warriors.
3. Military is expensive, only train what you need. The basic 3-strength archers are nowhere near as good as the 4-strength archers that are unlocked with Iron Working. Upgrading them is insanely expensive, and trying to replace them one by one is time consuming, wasteful, and too much micro-management. And as mentioned above, militia are a good defensive unit already. So skip the 3-strength archers and hold out for the 4-strength ones. Only research archery if you need walls, the buff to buildings/improvements, or are desperate to improve you civ strength ratio.
4. Workers are the first thing I build, even before growing the city. Once I unlock woodworking I'll be training 4-5 militia, and I don't want to pause on that to build a worker. The 40 or so turns to woodworking is the grace period where I can build non-military units, so that's how I use it. I usually build two workers, and if I still have a few turns left to WW, I'll build a scout.
5. Use your military to control the surrounding territory and reduce the barbarian spawn. Barbarians can start overwhelming if they're allowed to hang around, and recovering from this can be difficult. You want to use your militia to prevent their spawn as much as possible and hold them back at choke points. Easier said than done, of course, but a constant goal non-the-less.
6. The primary concern early game is having a good city for building military. You'll need it. After that, it's all about economy. Find the cities with the best potential to improve your economy, allowing you to maintain a strong military while also maintaining decent research. Economy economy economy.
7. After researching WW, I'll usually get the early mining tech, the stoneworking tech, and possibly weaving and/or the one that shows hemp if I think I might have some nearby. At this stage I want to get an idea of where to build my next 2 cities, since I likely won't have more than 3-4 cities for a long while, and I want to make those cities count. So getting an idea of the available resources can be helpful.
8. I don't play things turn by turn. I figure out what I'm going for and make a beeline for it. If I don't have bronze and am short on military production, I shoot straight for Iron Working. If I need to buff my economy, I go straight for trading. If it looks like I might want 5-6 cities based on resources, I will go for a religion to try and maximize happiness and the value of these cities. And if I have a lot of coast, I'll prioritize the The Great Lighthouse and/or the The Colossus (if I have bronze). Either of these wonders can be the critical element that leads to a successful early game thanks to the economy boost. And the +4 gold/turn from Great Merchants is an easy way to afford more military without impacting research. Economy economy economy. Great Prophets (+6 gold /turn) are even better at this, but their wonders might not have as much of an impact at the economy wonders, so it's a trade off. Building the Great Bath can put you off to an amazing start, but there's a good chance an AI civ will beat you to it, and the gold compensation isn't worth the production loss. Building Pyramids can be useful because the unlocking tech should be an early research anyway, the AI doesn't prioritize it, and it can make building The Great Lighthouse/The Colossus almost guaranteed. But skip Pyramids if angry barbs force you to spend a lot of time building units, since an AI will likely get to it first. Stonehenge is also a good option if you think you'll want to expand to 4-5 cities quickly, but the AI can be competitive about building it.
9. The only exception to the beelining in the above point is to unlock the 4-strength recon units. They're going to be critical for dealing with barbs and the other civs that will eventually try to invade you (there's always one).

 

[jblazer]

I've been playing on Emperor for the past 4-5 years, and here's my starting thoughts/strategies.

* Food and growth is important, but defending your starting city is more important.
* Soldiers are expensive to maintain, only train what you need (though you will need a fair amount to compete with AI)
* Starting location and resources matter significantly
* Settling many cities fast is a sure way to bankrupt yourself into a death spiral. But if you don't settle a spot of land, the AI likely will.
* Always have a vision and a plan.

My usual approach:

1. My first 3-4 researched techs are about getting a food source, immediately followed by woodworking to train militia. If I have crops nearby, great. I study agriculture, and then immediately go for tool making and wood working. If there are cattle/sheep/pigs, then I instead go for animal husbandry first and only then go for wood working. If I don't have crops nearby in the starting city radius, or if there is wine, I use the wheel to get to animal husbandry instead of agriculture. If there are neither crops nor livestock nearby, GG. Game's over and time to start again.
2. Military is expensive, only train what you need. Warriors become obsolete very fast but militia can be used for a while to come, so training warriors early on is a waste. Going straight for militia will allow you to build a decent defense before any threats (barbs or aggressive civs) show up without wasting build points or cash on useless warriors.
3. Military is expensive, only train what you need. The basic 3-strength archers are nowhere near as good as the 4-strength archers that are unlocked with Iron Working. Upgrading them is insanely expensive, and trying to replace them one by one is time consuming, wasteful, and too much micro-management. And as mentioned above, militia are a good defensive unit already. So skip the 3-strength archers and hold out for the 4-strength ones. Only research archery if you need walls, the buff to buildings/improvements, or are desperate to improve you civ strength ratio.
4. Workers are the first thing I build, even before growing the city. Once I unlock woodworking I'll be training 4-5 militia, and I don't want to pause on that to build a worker. The 40 or so turns to woodworking is the grace period where I can build non-military units, so that's how I use it. I usually build two workers, and if I still have a few turns left to WW, I'll build a scout.
5. Use your military to control the surrounding territory and reduce the barbarian spawn. Barbarians can start overwhelming if they're allowed to hang around, and recovering from this can be difficult. You want to use your militia to prevent their spawn as much as possible and hold them back at choke points. Easier said than done, of course, but a constant goal non-the-less.
6. The primary concern early game is having a good city for building military. You'll need it. After that, it's all about economy. Find the cities with the best potential to improve your economy, allowing you to maintain a strong military while also maintaining decent research. Economy economy economy.
7. After researching WW, I'll usually get the early mining tech, the stoneworking tech, and possibly weaving and/or the one that shows hemp if I think I might have some nearby. At this stage I want to get an idea of where to build my next 2 cities, since I likely won't have more than 3-4 cities for a long while, and I want to make those cities count. So getting an idea of the available resources can be helpful.
8. I don't play things turn by turn. I figure out what I'm going for and make a beeline for it. If I don't have bronze and am short on military production, I shoot straight for Iron Working. If I need to buff my economy, I go straight for trading. If it looks like I might want 5-6 cities based on resources, I will go for a religion to try and maximize happiness and the value of these cities. And if I have a lot of coast, I'll prioritize the The Great Lighthouse and/or the The Colossus (if I have bronze). Either of these wonders can be the critical element that leads to a successful early game thanks to the economy boost. And the +4 gold/turn from Great Merchants is an easy way to afford more military without impacting research. Economy economy economy. Great Prophets (+6 gold /turn) are even better at this, but their wonders might not have as much of an impact at the economy wonders, so it's a trade off. Building the Great Bath can put you off to an amazing start, but there's a good chance an AI civ will beat you to it, and the gold compensation isn't worth the production loss. Building Pyramids can be useful because the unlocking tech should be an early research anyway, the AI doesn't prioritize it, and it can make building The Great Lighthouse/The Colossus almost guaranteed. But skip Pyramids if angry barbs force you to spend a lot of time building units, since an AI will likely get to it first. Stonehenge is also a good option if you think you'll want to expand to 4-5 cities quickly, but the AI can be competitive about building it.
9. The only exception to the beelining in the above point is to unlock the 4-strength recon units. They're going to be critical for dealing with barbs and the other civs that will eventually try to invade you (there's always one).

A lot of this is how I have been playing so far and similar style to rise of mankind mod, with the exception of not making warriors first. In rise of mankind we built warriors first cause it was the fastest way to start fog busting but I guess in this mod I have to go worker first.

8. I don't play things turn by turn. I figure out what I'm going for and make a beeline for it.

Currently I'm still playing turn by turn cause I don't know enough about the game to make a strategy, I'll focus on your beeline techs you mentioned thanks

 

[Snowygerry]

[...]
3. The time to improve starts slow (and can be tanked even more by certain civics), but later picks up with several key techs and civics. So I wouldn't say more than one-two except maybe really early on.

'Pastoral Nomadism' ? That gives a -25 percent malus to workers, I'm experimenting with it for the first time in my current game, after ignoring it at first...

With the increased turn count of this mod and fewer cities to improve, it is something to consider

Do you stick with it until Guilds or switch back to Subsistence Economy after a while ?

The AI seems to switch civics quite often in the early game - a tactic or just a coincidence ?

 

[Michkov]

Pastoral Nomadism is quite good if you got the livestock resources to make up for the extra worker time

 

[Snowygerry]

That was the case here yes, 3 cattle, elephants and pigs around my capital...

Seemed like an excellent chance to try it - improved most of them before switching.

Iron Working gives +25% to building improvements again, compensating for the original penalty, so I see little reason to switch back.

Winston Churchill may feel a bit out place of following his herds around 'till Medieval times though

On general opening strategies I have little to offer I'm afraid - this is only my 4th game in this mod.

It seems important not to overexpand as others noted above, still you need several key resources to thrive in the middle game - my 3rd city was settled near Copper, 4th for Iron.

Sulfur and Coal are needed too - but have yet to be revealed...

 

[onefinneday]

Outside of advanced start - worker first. The extra food and hammers (and potentially commerce) from opening with the worker is likely better than anything you would get from the starting buildings. The first worker can go a long way, building improvements in advance so you need fewer workers later.

If you have any pasture resources and you're not interested in stonehenge/pyramids/great bath, Pastoral Nomadism is almost automatic. Even if you have farm resources too, you would probably work the pastures over the farms early on (especially cows which give hammers). While the Hunter Cabin is okay, +2 food (and +4 or better on some starts) is more critical in the early game. The food is so strong that you could even produce wonders through the penalty (or switch off to Subsistence just as you are near when you would complete 'henge).

Having two pastures, PN, and a size 2 city can crank out settlers really fast, which is helpful for claiming land and getting a head start on developing your next 2-3 cities. PN is so overpowered pre-2000 BC if you can take advantage of it, so much that if you don't have pasture resources you know you're going to be a lot worse off than most starts. I've had starts where the AI simply had no chance early. It is even more ridiculous if playing as America. It's so overpowered that I try not to use it, but AIs can make some use of it. There are some exceptions - Russia's UI is most useful with Subsistence Economy - but even in that case, the critical period is that early expansion stage to get your first settlers out.

Going for Bronze Working early is a pretty solid strategy in most games, as it gives you the first military unit that can be built with food, and this means they will come out a lot faster than anything else. On some starts you can simply swamp the AI with light swordsmen and take their capital, or any cities they build. It also unlocks a civic that makes the cost of a sprawling empire much more affordable. Your early cities won't be able to grow past size 4 anyway, and if you did emphasize food tiles you will reach that rather quickly. Once you have your early cities set up, you can move off PN since you won't likely need the food. A core of about 4 swordsmen is good enough to scare most AIs off of war, and you can make use of them in your first war once they are supplemented with better units.

On archers - some people don't like the 3 strength archers, since building them will drive up the cost of the useful 4 strength archers and later crossbowmen. It isn't a bad idea to get archery at some point simply to have them as an option, since planting 2 archers in a city is good for repelling the 4-unit stacks the AI sends at you in very early wars.

Best military unit in the early game will be the Peltast / Skirmisher line. If an AI stack is primarily melee, your skirmishers will just tear it to shreds. The same technology also unlocks the 5 strength axemen that actually are good for taking cities. It's much better to build something that will just wipe an enemy army from the map. You can also take archery and build the crap archers, so you can pull the swordsmen you might have for city defense into an offensive army. Weapon Smithing is about the point where you aren't talking about "opening" and you're in the part of the early game where you can start to shoot ahead. I've had games where a few Peltasts were basically my mobile army, and as long as the AI isn't too clever, that's all you will need for a defensive war.

Storyteller circles are pretty good, especially for Philosophical leaders. You might hold out in favor of building infrastructure for more food/hammers instead (but note that your research rate will tank badly after your third city and is awful on the fourth). They're the first culture building I usually have access to as well.

The sooner your expansion cities can set up their own food/hammer infrastructure, the better - they can do the work of building your further settlers and workers, while the capital is making a library and useful things.

Architecture - cottages are not what they once were, but in the early happiness- and commerce- starved game, you can get some utility out of them, and this defrays the cost of expansion. Putting a cottage or two near every city can go a long way towards defraying the cost of expansion, if you need something for those cities to work for their third or fourth citizen. Usually early city sites are going to have 1-2 good resources and then the third is either cottage or working a hill/forest for extra production. Note that cottages do increase epidemic chance, so you don't want to build a lot of them around one city (nor would you want to).

Fail gold is not the worst thing. If you aren't too needy of a wonder, you could stop production purely to get the fail gold. The conversion rate for research on failed wonders is pretty good if you have marble or limestone. Whether your strategy is "tall" or "wide", your slider is going to be pretty heavily towards commerce for a while, and being able to power through research at that critical stage of the game might be better if you have the important infrastructure in place and your military needs are fulfilled elsewhere.

 

[onefinneday]

To answer the second question - there is no one answer that will fit every map, aside from the aforementioned use of Pastoral Nomadism. Slavery is another obvious choice but your only other choice in the early game offers very little. The revolts are not that big a deal and it is free great generals (though the same is true of the AI). Just because you have a religion doesn't mean you need to abandon Paganism. If you can get Statue of Zeus, you get around the "you need no religion to build pagan temples" problem. Something like Solar Cult works well on top of the Pagan Temple bonuses. You don't need to get off Rule of Fear too soon, as you will probably find some use for the unit production bonus.

I usually make do with 4-5 workers for the early game - enough to improve the tiles I work and build roads to things. So basically a worker per city, but you can make do with 3 workers for a while.

 

[Bobisback]

I've been playing on Emperor for the past 4-5 years, and here's my starting thoughts/strategies.

* Food and growth is important, but defending your starting city is more important.
* Soldiers are expensive to maintain, only train what you need (though you will need a fair amount to compete with AI)
* Starting location and resources matter significantly
* Settling many cities fast is a sure way to bankrupt yourself into a death spiral. But if you don't settle a spot of land, the AI likely will.
* Always have a vision and a plan.

My usual approach:

1. My first 3-4 researched techs are about getting a food source, immediately followed by woodworking to train militia. If I have crops nearby, great. I study agriculture, and then immediately go for tool making and wood working. If there are cattle/sheep/pigs, then I instead go for animal husbandry first and only then go for wood working. If I don't have crops nearby in the starting city radius, or if there is wine, I use the wheel to get to animal husbandry instead of agriculture. If there are neither crops nor livestock nearby, GG. Game's over and time to start again.
2. Military is expensive, only train what you need. Warriors become obsolete very fast but militia can be used for a while to come, so training warriors early on is a waste. Going straight for militia will allow you to build a decent defense before any threats (barbs or aggressive civs) show up without wasting build points or cash on useless warriors.
3. Military is expensive, only train what you need. The basic 3-strength archers are nowhere near as good as the 4-strength archers that are unlocked with Iron Working. Upgrading them is insanely expensive, and trying to replace them one by one is time consuming, wasteful, and too much micro-management. And as mentioned above, militia are a good defensive unit already. So skip the 3-strength archers and hold out for the 4-strength ones. Only research archery if you need walls, the buff to buildings/improvements, or are desperate to improve you civ strength ratio.
4. Workers are the first thing I build, even before growing the city. Once I unlock woodworking I'll be training 4-5 militia, and I don't want to pause on that to build a worker. The 40 or so turns to woodworking is the grace period where I can build non-military units, so that's how I use it. I usually build two workers, and if I still have a few turns left to WW, I'll build a scout.
5. Use your military to control the surrounding territory and reduce the barbarian spawn. Barbarians can start overwhelming if they're allowed to hang around, and recovering from this can be difficult. You want to use your militia to prevent their spawn as much as possible and hold them back at choke points. Easier said than done, of course, but a constant goal non-the-less.
6. The primary concern early game is having a good city for building military. You'll need it. After that, it's all about economy. Find the cities with the best potential to improve your economy, allowing you to maintain a strong military while also maintaining decent research. Economy economy economy.
7. After researching WW, I'll usually get the early mining tech, the stoneworking tech, and possibly weaving and/or the one that shows hemp if I think I might have some nearby. At this stage I want to get an idea of where to build my next 2 cities, since I likely won't have more than 3-4 cities for a long while, and I want to make those cities count. So getting an idea of the available resources can be helpful.
8. I don't play things turn by turn. I figure out what I'm going for and make a beeline for it. If I don't have bronze and am short on military production, I shoot straight for Iron Working. If I need to buff my economy, I go straight for trading. If it looks like I might want 5-6 cities based on resources, I will go for a religion to try and maximize happiness and the value of these cities. And if I have a lot of coast, I'll prioritize the The Great Lighthouse and/or the The Colossus (if I have bronze). Either of these wonders can be the critical element that leads to a successful early game thanks to the economy boost. And the +4 gold/turn from Great Merchants is an easy way to afford more military without impacting research. Economy economy economy. Great Prophets (+6 gold /turn) are even better at this, but their wonders might not have as much of an impact at the economy wonders, so it's a trade off. Building the Great Bath can put you off to an amazing start, but there's a good chance an AI civ will beat you to it, and the gold compensation isn't worth the production loss. Building Pyramids can be useful because the unlocking tech should be an early research anyway, the AI doesn't prioritize it, and it can make building The Great Lighthouse/The Colossus almost guaranteed. But skip Pyramids if angry barbs force you to spend a lot of time building units, since an AI will likely get to it first. Stonehenge is also a good option if you think you'll want to expand to 4-5 cities quickly, but the AI can be competitive about building it.
9. The only exception to the beelining in the above point is to unlock the 4-strength recon units. They're going to be critical for dealing with barbs and the other civs that will eventually try to invade you (there's always one).

This was super helpful, the last game I played after reading this, wow, was easy on emperor hahaha. Thanks for the insights. I would love to pick your brain some time on some of these things you discuss.

 

[Bobisback]

If you have any pasture resources and you're not interested in stonehenge/pyramids/great bath, Pastoral Nomadism is almost automatic. Even if you have farm resources too, you would probably work the pastures over the farms early on (especially cows which give hammers). While the Hunter Cabin is okay, +2 food (and +4 or better on some starts) is more critical in the early game. The food is so strong that you could even produce wonders through the penalty (or switch off to Subsistence just as you are near when you would complete 'henge).

Switching off for wonders actually worked really well for me, as most of the time the food bonus only helped to get the city to max pop really fast, since happiness is such a issue, I would never work the tiles when building stuff. So basically to deal with epidemics quickly was the main reason for me to stay on PN. If I need a wonder, switch off, build the wonder (pray for no epidemic during wonder building lol) then switch back. I have found very few occasions to build the hunter cabin ummmm. The cost investment, plus the need for the civic is a huge turn off to me. Unless I have like 3 camps in my first city and my next two cities have at least one camp, I will not even consider building them tbh.

Best military unit in the early game will be the Peltast / Skirmisher line. If an AI stack is primarily melee, your skirmishers will just tear it to shreds. The same technology also unlocks the 5 strength axemen that actually are good for taking cities. It's much better to build something that will just wipe an enemy army from the map. You can also take archery and build the crap archers, so you can pull the swordsmen you might have for city defense into an offensive army. Weapon Smithing is about the point where you aren't talking about "opening" and you're in the part of the early game where you can start to shoot ahead. I've had games where a few Peltasts were basically my mobile army, and as long as the AI isn't too clever, that's all you will need for a defensive war.

My next game i am actually going to try this strategy in my next game. Though i am not sure what peltasts are, I don't know that I have ever seen them in my last game. Most games so far I have never built skirmishers. My last game I focused on city attack armies with great defense only. By using the Hills promotion added onto ranged support/pikeman basically made my assault armies unable to be countered. only downside was when no hills where nearby, I have found in most games this is not an issue. Then with the rest of the army are shock and seige. Even if the enemy got a large stack near me by the time I bash his cities he retreats to defend them. When you have a bunch of high level shock troops, it can take out many units a turn.

Architecture - cottages are not what they once were, but in the early happiness- and commerce- starved game, you can get some utility out of them, and this defrays the cost of expansion. Putting a cottage or two near every city can go a long way towards defraying the cost of expansion, if you need something for those cities to work for their third or fourth citizen. Usually early city sites are going to have 1-2 good resources and then the third is either cottage or working a hill/forest for extra production. Note that cottages do increase epidemic chance, so you don't want to build a lot of them around one city (nor would you want to).

Funny enough I think cottages are still very powerful. If not OP. When combined with merchant families and some food resources like wheat and rice, they are really viable. In my last game, I started on a island with no other civs, so I rushed caravels and I focused heavy on cottages, trade routes, and pastures. Before Merchant families I would do Pasture Civic, this combined with a couple of pasture resources I could spam cottages. Epidemics were not an issue because the food production was so high on the pastures, I would only lose a single pop for like 1 or 2 turns max. Combine this with a financial civ and you got one hell of a powerful strategy. In that last game, I was playing on emperor and by the time I found everyone else i was more then half an era ahead in tech from them. I kept up 100% science until late medieval age, then I went into a massive expansion and stayed around 80% for most of the rest of the game, only pausing for upgrades. Every cottage was around 8-9 gold, so I would say this is more than viable strategy. Really the only downside is the epidemics, but those can be mitigated by having high food resources near by. So any city that has two to three food resources, I automatically make like 3-4 cottages, and it is a powerhouse. Even if epidemics happen it gets the pop back in no time at all, espically if you use the restricted growth, so your cities all sit at max food. When the first pop dies it gains a pop that turn, then normally you lose one more pop so you and since you keep 50% of the first food, it is like on 70% for the previous pop. So it normally only takes a couple of turns to get back to the size.

 

[RamblinWreck]

Scout scout scout! Where I go early depends a lot on what resources are nearby. So unless I have a specific religion I want (like Zoroastrianism for the cultural playthrough I just did) I want to get through all the techs that expose resources as soon as I can. If I don't have copper within my starting city, usually my second city will be wherever copper is. If scouting reveals a close neighbor, I'll expand in a way that cuts them off and go for a few more units than I otherwise would. I personally like to start with a worker, especially if I'm facing a jungle- or forest-heavy start. Even if I barely have any improvements I can build with them, there's usually at least one resource I can hook up, and then with roadbuilding I can get a head start on routes.