Anyone else think the way you get through Affinities is.. stupid?

Infiltrator

Warlord
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Sep 13, 2009
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Affinities boil down to science, and MAYBE some luck with quests/random expeditions.

But most of the time, they have NOTHING to do with the way you play the game. You just realize what tech you need to reach X affinity points and go for it.

This isn't how it should be right - buildings, culture, tile improvements, specialists and so on SHOULD by all means contribute to shaping your civilization right.. I mean, if you terraform everything, one would assume it bumps you toward purity.. nope. You can be a 100% robotic society living in a 1:1 copy of the amazon jungle. Massacre all aliens? Purity 4 lyfe bruh.

It's just that, there isn't any personal touch to it, it's so detached from what you do.. instead of your entire gameplay shaping up the affinity of your choice, it just ends up being a science trade (and a pretty unfavorable one) for the affinity you need, and you're done.
 
Yes, I've mentioned the same in other threads. It's a real shame since this system is the core novel selling point and the idea of affinity developing as your civ grows is great - it should just be done more organically, and as you point out based on game actions, not as strongly linked to science, and meaningfully affect your playstyle rather than being cosmetic window-dressing.
 
It's a little strange that affinity levels are pretty much the only way to upgrade your military units. In essence, every affinity tech is a military tech.

Also, the AI doesn't seem to realize this, and is using terrible units 200+ turns in.
 
The basic units should level up via any affinity progress at any level, not just at specific levels of one. That would add an interesting way to play the game "wide" affinity/tech.
 
Affinities boil down to science, and MAYBE some luck with quests/random expeditions.

But most of the time, they have NOTHING to do with the way you play the game. You just realize what tech you need to reach X affinity points and go for it.

This isn't how it should be right - buildings, culture, tile improvements, specialists and so on SHOULD by all means contribute to shaping your civilization right.. I mean, if you terraform everything, one would assume it bumps you toward purity.. nope. You can be a 100% robotic society living in a 1:1 copy of the amazon jungle. Massacre all aliens? Purity 4 lyfe bruh.

It's just that, there isn't any personal touch to it, it's so detached from what you do.. instead of your entire gameplay shaping up the affinity of your choice, it just ends up being a science trade (and a pretty unfavorable one) for the affinity you need, and you're done.

I agree with this completely, I was very disappointed to see that much of your affinity growth was from tech.
 
It also constrains how you play. If you are going for an affinity victory or domination victory, the affinity techs basically have to be followed and it ends up feeling like there is less flexibility with the tech web as it initially appears.

The early game feels very free and flexible with lots of options, but once you get an affinity chosen, it feels like 90% of the time you are just aiming for affinity points and hopefully picking up some actual useful buildings etc. along the way.
 
I agree. It doesn't make sense to have Purity 10 and Harmony 10. Yet it is possible in the game.

According to the Civilopedia, Harmoney is about understanding and integrating into the planet's ecology, Purity is about rejecting change and adaptation, while Supremacy is about transcending to a new form of existence that combines technology and life.

But in the game they're all the same.

Gameplay actions should have consequences that shift the player's affinity towards one of the three corners of this triangle. Attacking aliens should take points off Harmony. Researching Habitation at the start should present a choice that establish how your units are initially going to survive on this planet.
  • Vaccine - Damage from miasma is reduced by x% where x% is the percentage of movement points remaining when the turn ends. Harmony+1 for choosing this.
  • Filter Implant - Miasma is filtered through a nose implant. Damage from miasma is 20% for each consecutive turn you have been standing in miasma. On the 6th turn you take 100% damage from miasma. Supremacy+1 for choosing this.
  • Full Body Suit - Completely block out miasma with a full body air-tight suit. Your units are immune to miasma, but aliens will attack your units and trade convoys on sight. Purity+1 for choosing this.
Instead of having the same generators for all three affinities, Harmony should start getting energy from miasma with a building that produces energy depending on the amount of miasma around. Purity should be pulling out their good old generators they brought from earth as tile improvements. Supremacy uses advanced technology to harvest energy from natural resources like Geothermal and Firaxite and Floatstones.

Culture should be obtainable in 3 different ways, too.

Building and keeping Alien Preserves should raise culture and Harmony. Culture for Harmony play should be earned through interaction with aliens and making direct use of local resources (build quarry/plantation/farms). For Purity, it's all about spreading and preserving the human culture, about processing and refining the local resources into materials we are familiar with. So water refineries (building) and habitation domes (improvement) should give culture. All resources will need the Processing Plant improvement which gives points for Purity. For Supremacy, culture is yet to be created. So Supremacy players gain culture through science and production.

Then military units should all be different by mid game.

Harmony should be about swarms. Cheap units that can be merged to form a swarm (to obey the 1UPT rule) to eventually form a very strong swarm. Depending on the constituents of the swarm, it could be stronger against ranged attack or stronger against melee. Swarms should also be extremely terrain dependent, as much as tripling its combat strength on the right terrain. Units occupying basic resources will heal.

Purity should be about logistics. Each unit will have a trailing path to the nearest city/depo for supplies. Colonists can "build depo" when it is within N tiles of a city or another depo. When a unit operates outside supply range, it will gradually drop in effectiveness until at 20% effectiveness it automatically moves away from enemy units towards the nearest depo. Surrounded units cannot retreat. Paratroopers will maintain full effectiveness for 10 turns after paradrop.

Supremacy is about individual enhancement, meaning each unit takes much longer to produce, but will be immune from miasma, need no supply, but heals at much slower rate outside of cities (even when inside own border), etc.

But I guess if we go that far, it's like building 3 CivBE games at once. :3
 
It also constrains how you play. If you are going for an affinity victory or domination victory, the affinity techs basically have to be followed and it ends up feeling like there is less flexibility with the tech web as it initially appears.

The early game feels very free and flexible with lots of options, but once you get an affinity chosen, it feels like 90% of the time you are just aiming for affinity points and hopefully picking up some actual useful buildings etc. along the way.

I don't mind being restrained to certain techs/abilities/buildings as long as it makes sense and I get a benefit for the sacrifice. But at the moment the system makes ZERO sense.

I agree. It doesn't make sense to have Purity 10 and Harmony 10. Yet it is possible in the game.

According to the Civilopedia, Harmoney is about understanding and integrating into the planet's ecology, Purity is about rejecting change and adaptation, while Supremacy is about transcending to a new form of existence that combines technology and life.

But in the game they're all the same.

Gameplay actions should have consequences that shift the player's affinity towards one of the three corners of this triangle. Attacking aliens should take points off Harmony. Researching Habitation at the start should present a choice that establish how your units are initially going to survive on this planet.
  • Vaccine - Damage from miasma is reduced by x% where x% is the percentage of movement points remaining when the turn ends. Harmony+1 for choosing this.
  • Filter Implant - Miasma is filtered through a nose implant. Damage from miasma is 20% for each consecutive turn you have been standing in miasma. On the 6th turn you take 100% damage from miasma. Supremacy+1 for choosing this.
  • Full Body Suit - Completely block out miasma with a full body air-tight suit. Your units are immune to miasma, but aliens will attack your units and trade convoys on sight. Purity+1 for choosing this.
Instead of having the same generators for all three affinities, Harmony should start getting energy from miasma with a building that produces energy depending on the amount of miasma around. Purity should be pulling out their good old generators they brought from earth as tile improvements. Supremacy uses advanced technology to harvest energy from natural resources like Geothermal and Firaxite and Floatstones.

Culture should be obtainable in 3 different ways, too.

Building and keeping Alien Preserves should raise culture and Harmony. Culture for Harmony play should be earned through interaction with aliens and making direct use of local resources (build quarry/plantation/farms). For Purity, it's all about spreading and preserving the human culture, about processing and refining the local resources into materials we are familiar with. So water refineries (building) and habitation domes (improvement) should give culture. All resources will need the Processing Plant improvement which gives points for Purity. For Supremacy, culture is yet to be created. So Supremacy players gain culture through science and production.

Then military units should all be different by mid game.

Harmony should be about swarms. Cheap units that can be merged to form a swarm (to obey the 1UPT rule) to eventually form a very strong swarm. Depending on the constituents of the swarm, it could be stronger against ranged attack or stronger against melee. Swarms should also be extremely terrain dependent, as much as tripling its combat strength on the right terrain. Units occupying basic resources will heal.

Purity should be about logistics. Each unit will have a trailing path to the nearest city/depo for supplies. Colonists can "build depo" when it is within N tiles of a city or another depo. When a unit operates outside supply range, it will gradually drop in effectiveness until at 20% effectiveness it automatically moves away from enemy units towards the nearest depo. Surrounded units cannot retreat. Paratroopers will maintain full effectiveness for 10 turns after paradrop.

Supremacy is about individual enhancement, meaning each unit takes much longer to produce, but will be immune from miasma, need no supply, but heals at much slower rate outside of cities (even when inside own border), etc.

But I guess if we go that far, it's like building 3 CivBE games at once. :3

Absolutely agreed, but I think the changes you listed are way too far out for firaxis to implement - they'd have to revise the entire thing from the ground up, which I doubt will happen, even considering 2 expansions. Because if you look at it, harmony is more about individual units as they gain str based on being alone (which is stupid if you ask me), whereas supremacy gets benefits of the pack. Given the 1UPT system, you can't feasably make the harmony system work while the supremacy one works out 9/10 times. However this alone is just a small nitpick in a huge cluster**** of the entire affinity acquisition and definition system.
 
I don't mind being restrained to certain techs/abilities/buildings as long as it makes sense and I get a benefit for the sacrifice. But at the moment the system makes ZERO sense.



Absolutely agreed, but I think the changes you listed are way too far out for firaxis to implement - they'd have to revise the entire thing from the ground up, which I doubt will happen, even considering 2 expansions. Because if you look at it, harmony is more about individual units as they gain str based on being alone (which is stupid if you ask me), whereas supremacy gets benefits of the pack. Given the 1UPT system, you can't feasably make the harmony system work while the supremacy one works out 9/10 times. However this alone is just a small nitpick in a huge cluster**** of the entire affinity acquisition and definition system.

I suggested on another thread that they could co-opt the religion system and have points accumulate in each affinity in the same way as faith - with consequences in terms of disorder or restricted access to 'off-affinity' game options if your points in a secondary affinity become too high.

Tying it to game actions such as improvements also gives a better idea what the affinities are - as it stands only Purity is really characterised, and then only because it can be characterised as stereotypical 'pioneers in a new landscape'. What does 'living in harmony with the planet' entail? Is an alien preserve a Harmony-type improvement because it keeps aliens alive, or a Purity one because it co-opts the local aliens to recreate something resembling wildlife reserves back on Earth (much as domesticating the aliens is a Purity quest action)? Conversely, might a dome be a Harmony-type improvement as it represents keeping the human environment contained and so not contaminating the natural landscape, where Purity would get on with terraforming the planet so domes aren't needed?

And aside from being giant robots thrown in because robots and cyborgs are a sci-fi trope, what is Supremacy? It doesn't seem to have any particularly coherent link with the rest of the game at all.

The key problem I see with adapting the affinity system in this way with the existing game is that - aside from making most leaf techs largely useless - is that most of the game's buildings and improvement types seem biased towards Purity (not altogether surprising, since they largely reflect replicating on the new planet structures from back home).

And affinities really need to interact with one another between and within factions - the whole concept is political in nature, and none are really all that interesting in isolation. The Mars Trilogy wouldn't have had much of a story if it had just seen people get on with the business of terraforming without any objections from the series' equivalent of a Harmony faction.
 
I agree it is indeed a bit sad that the only way to get affinity points is via the tech tree.

That means my games usually go like this: Grab Pioneering, Chemistry, Ecology, Genetics then get the most important mid tier techs for the map setup and after that just research everything with my affinity of choise to get to lvl 13 asap.

It would be really cool if certain buildings and improvements would push you towards a certain direction. Also I'd remove some of the affinities from techs and add them into little tech quets, just like for buildings.
 
This is the number 1 reason why I can't take this game seriously. The AI will never become strong because unit strength is linked to Purity. I don't know what's going on over there at Firaxis, sigh. Purity being on tech is doable, but the fact that your units can only upgrade from Purity makes the game sooo easy.
 
That is something that disappointed me a little bit. They all have a unique resource and they all level up to more or less the same benefits (stronger units and big espionage actions). And you can do whatever you want with all of them.

I really think harmony should not be allowed to terraform, and should have a penalty for attacking aliens. I also wonder why they all have a unique resource. Why would only purity civs be interested in floatstone? It can't be reminding them of earth!
 
In another thread somewhere, someone suggested making Terrascapes a unique Purity tile improvement, adding a unique Harmony tile improvement that can only be built on forests, and having the both buffed by Ecoscaping. The Harmony improvement could wind up with equivalent yields (+1 food +1 production from the forest; +1 food, +1 production, +2 culture from the tile improvement), but cost less energy to maintain (-4 perhaps) to compensate for the fact that you need to leave forest tiles intact to build it on.
 
How about this to make gameplay differ significantly between the affinities? Each affinity earns points in different ways:

Purity: Purity points are earned for many 'home-like' improvements and buildings, and from quest decisions such as choosing to display relics to remind people of Old Earth.

By default, societies will mostly begin with a Puritanical bent, and either reinforce that as time goes on or choose to adapt to their environment; tools to do the former, such as terrascaping, will however be fewer and more expensive to produce or maintain as the game goes on as the faction becomes increasingly distant from its roots and retaining traditions is more of a struggle than adapting. Purity military units will be strong early as you level up quickly, but to remain competitive later Purity will need to invest in specific techs that provide their unique units.

Supremacy: Supremacy will function much as now, obtaining points from technological progression, and also from some buildings and improvements such as domes that emphasise isolating themselves from the environment and those such as autolabs that rely on self-sufficiency through technological means. Working certain, harsh tiles such as desert or tundra will slowly add supremacy points, as these environments are sufficiently inhospitable that citizens will undergo increasing levels of augmentation to prosper.

A supremacy society is therefore suited to particularly unforgiving starts, and its progress tends to be slow but inexorable.

Harmony: Harmony gains points mainly by passive accumulation - retaining undeveloped tiles in your territory will add harmony points, as will many non-supremacy-related technologies and quests. Aliens in proximity to a settlement also gradually accrue points, so Harmony-minded players have incentives not to kill them. Harmony points will also be generated by pillaging or removing improvements.

Harmony empires will tend to be wide and dispersed (to maximise territory) but without the surrounding improvements to support larger settlements. Food and production will be provided mainly through trade between settlements in a largely unaltered landscape (anyone who's read the Mars Trilogy knows where this is going). A Harmony faction that expands fast and exploits this early can level up quickly. Without active intervention, however, most factions can expect to naturally evolve slowly towards Harmony (as there will usually be some undeveloped land) in the absence of active efforts to terraform or steer technological development towards cybernetics.

Of course to balance all of this there will need to be some changes to the way affinity links to unit upgrades, and since every empire will be accumulating points in every affinity there must be downsides - for example, uplevelling in Harmony to a certain point may prevent you from building certain improvements like Terrascapes (and may even result in random events triggering that periodically pillage existing improvements, representing acts of sabotage), so if you want a Purity-focused game you have an active incentive to develop your territory and do so quickly.
 
Needs more affinity quests and less emphasis on increasing affinities via tech.

Its quite sad because its obvious that some techs are much better than others, if not for resources, everyone would pick the same affinity in a serious game.

Look at the first 3 affinity techs. Clearing miasma (when you already have access to miasma repulsors which are far cheaper and quicker to clear miasma), bonuses to wells/quarries or the gene vault. Gee i wonder which is a better option.
 
I agree that it's poorly implemented, but I disagree about the science bit to a degree. If they'd just do a better job of steering you down a particular path with the techs that give affinity it would be just fine. Also I don't know about being "lucky" with quests to gain affinity; I seem to get a huge chunk of my affinity from quest objectives most games. Those again should really do a better job of steering you down a particular path, but sadly they don't. For example if they extended the quest chains and added better bonuses at the end but with penalties to boot (ex: a quest that's harmony outcome gave tiles with miasma or biowells +x yield, but also made maintenance costs on terrascapes, domes, academies, nodes, etc much higher) that would make a lot more sense to me than the current "pick the option with the affinity you want, not the one that makes sense for how you're going to play the game".
 
I think they need more random events and mini-quests from those events instead of so many building quests. For instance perhaps suddenly miasma appears on 5 random city tiles and the quest lets you: spend 150 production to get rid of the "new" miasma or spend 250 production to make units immune to miasma in the city. Then if you chose the first one that would go towards Purity/Supremacy while the later choice would go towards Harmony.
 
By my count (while compiling quests), each affinity already has ~6 unique quests devoted to it, in addition to some quests that merely raise whatever your dominant affinity is and some other quests that allow you to pick an affinity. More isn't necessarily what's needed; the rate at which they trigger just needs to be upped (and possibly allowed to repeat for some of them), coupled with maybe less affinity for techs.

The only other comment I have is that Harmony is not necessarily 'Let's never fight the natives.' Harmony is focused on adapting to the new world, and becoming a part of it, yes, but have of it is just being willing to make bio-technology a massive part of their science; hippy notions not required. (This coming from a Harmony player who can consistently kill 100 aliens a game).
 
By my count (while compiling quests), each affinity already has ~6 unique quests devoted to it, in addition to some quests that merely raise whatever your dominant affinity is and some other quests that allow you to pick an affinity. More isn't necessarily what's needed; the rate at which they trigger just needs to be upped (and possibly allowed to repeat for some of them), coupled with maybe less affinity for techs.

There are that many side quests for each affinity?? I remember most quests just being 1-turn building click and finish quests. There is also the main storyline quest, but I felt like most affinity points were from the tech web.
 
There are that many side quests for each affinity?? I remember most quests just being 1-turn building click and finish quests. There is also the main storyline quest, but I felt like most affinity points were from the tech web.

As for unique affinity quests, here are the ones I've logged (only Purity).

Spoiler :
Startographer:
Progenitor artifacts from a previous ruin site are yielding new clues about the mysterious race. Near a massive, collapsed structure, illustrations are found of a common nighttime constellation. The scientific community hopes to study it.
Objective: Launch 1 Deep Space Telescope
Nothing unusual is discovered about the stars themselves, but astoundingly, the constellation they form seems to outline the land around our colony. This seemingly impossible fact demands further study.
Objective: Build an Observatory in 3 Cities
Further analysis of the stars confirm it: Somehow, the visible constellations form a near perfect map of this world. By mapping the entire sky, scientists reveal yet-unexplored regions of the planet. What beings could have used the heavens themselves as their canvas?
Reward: +12 Affinity towards Purity, Continent outlines are revealed

From Scratch:
Though our workers are the most advanced in history, this planet’s unfamiliar conditions continue to hinder our efforts towards expansion. Rather than fight our new world, we should attempt to rebuild the old one.
Objective: Build 3 Terrascape Improvements (Number modified by size? Gamespeed?)
Through terraforming we have finally brought new, Earth-like regions to this planet. They may be artificial, but they are still magnificent and will allow us to better utilize our existing technologies. Not even old Earth was this pristine.
Reward: +14 Points towards Purity, +200 Culture

Pure Advantage:
The cost of war is never obvious. The recent increase in battlefield-related injuries is prompting the need for more artificial organ fabrication in our colony.
Objective: Build 1 Bionics Lab Building
With the new advancements in tissue fabrication, regular citizens are interested in upgrading themselves. Many are now opting to replace their existing organs with healthier, longer-lasting versions.
A private industry is forming around artificial organ replacement. This could lift the burden of healthcare from the state, though quality may be difficult to regulate. Alternatively, the colony could declare organ replacement a human right, and guarantee free availability to its citizens.
Objective: Quest Decision
Allow Privatization: (Energy)
Such amazing power, in the hands of our own citizens… We’ve left humanity’s first home. Our advancement is now our own responsibility.
Reward: +20 Points towards Purity, and +650 Energy
Form Entitlement Program: (Science)
Free access to organ replacement – our ancestors never dreamed of such liberty. We’ve left humanity’s first home – our advancement is now our own responsibility.
Reward: +20 Points towards Purity, and 95 Science

Know Thyself:
Reports from our education system reveal a startling trend: much of the younger generation is practically unaware of our home-world. Without an understanding of our roots, eons of knowledge might be lost.
Objective: Build 4 Old Earth Relic Buildings
It’s our responsibility to preserve the memory of Earth. Let the virtues of man spread through the stars!
Reward: 23 Purity Points, 195 Culture (29, 210, and 525 Energy on Standard, Duel, Sputnik)

Civil Skies:
A new way of life has developed among those working in the Floatstone quarries. The miners have formed an almost spiritual attachment to the substance; some have even used it as an architectural material, building small communities of floating homes where they work. This new approach might work well on a larger scale…
Objective: Found 1 City Adjacent to Floatstone
(CITY) is magnificent – a realized dream of anyone who remembers Earth. Above even the highest buildings, an ocean of smaller stones wander the skies. The city could serve as a stunning tourist destination, or a super-efficient industrial center, with easy access to this rare material.
Objective: Quest Decision
Tourism: (Population, Energy)
The opening of (CITY)’s cultural centers brings record levels of travel to the young city. The living spaces are quickly filled, and tourism brings an explosion of wealth to the colony.
Reward: +28 Points towards Purity, +1 Population in (CITY), and +695 Energy (Standard, Duel, Sputnik)
Industry: (Production, Science)
Easy access to Floatstone, in close proximity to manufacturing locations, creates an industrial boom in (CITY). Excess material is also available for scientific research.
Reward: +28 Points towards Purity, +280 Production in (CITY), and +175 Science (Standard, Duel, Sputnik)

No One Thing:
When our people first came to this planet, we brought with us stockpiles of rare Earth metals, with which to build our new home. After years on this planet, these small supplies are dwindling. Let us work with our industrial leaders, that we may find and gather new local materials.
Objective: Build 1 Quarry Improvement
We’ve encountered a setback. Despite our attempts to mine them, this planet appears to lack most heavy metal elements. To acquire the materials we need, we must take a different approach.
Our scientists believe it may be possible to synthesize Earth-like materials from the local mineral supply. For now, this new approach remains a theory. They request a new facility devoted to its research.
Objective: Build 1 Laboratory Building
Months of research have led to a surprising success! We now have the ability to convert Alien minerals into Earth-like minerals. A portion of all mining efforts are now diverted into our labs, where the new conversion process takes place. Through human ingenuity, we’ve preserved our people’s way of life.
Reward: +30 Points towards Purity, Quarries Yield +2 Culture


As well as 2 more that may or may not be Purity linked, or just linked to whatever your dominant affinity is.
 
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