Anyone else think trade routes are a bit too good?

[TLHeart]

I also feel that there are too many trade routes. Up to three per city ends up being a lot of micromanagement. And internal trade routes still seem too good because the overall yield is much higher than in international trade routes.

how is the yeild higher than international trade routes?
Internal gives food, and production to 2 cities...
International gives science and energy, which benefits your entire nation.

and the amounts of each vary by the differential between the cites that are trading...

so do you want food and productions, or do you want energy and science? The amounts you receive is a choice, and the yields from the trade routes are also equal in raw units received.

 

[GhostSalsa]

mirrored trade routes doubled the food and production, and were unbalanced, and was a tactic the AI would not use.

It was, I believe, a rhetorical question. This is all the same as what trade route doubters are saying about the still-remaining status quo except we are saying they are, still, quadruple of the yield they should be. So if "quadruple" is ok, why was "double" bad? If you believe the balance will just work itself out, just say so. That's your assertion, it's not an argument.

 

[TLHeart]

I am thinking 3 is a bit much even if it requires another building. Especially since if the autoplant quest is going to be anything other than automatic and obvious +1 trade route the other option is going to have to be freaking amazing. I think we should scrap the autoplant +1 trade route and make it a choice between two different bonuses to trade route yields. The autoplant already gives a trade yield bonus so it is fitting with the building's theme, it'll cut some unnecessary micro and shift trade a little bit away from OP.

trade is NOT overpowered, but is a very important mechanic for this game...

I do agree that the autoplant decision needs to be a decision, not an obvious choice.

 

[TLHeart]

With only 8 total factions, there will always be land to settle on standard and larger maps, and internal trade routes are there so that one has the ability to grow a ***large*** empire.

Yes you will have to manage your trade routes, just like you have to manage an army. You have a choice, use internal trade routes that help 2 cities grow their infrastructure, or use external trade routes that provide benefits of science and energy for your entire nation.

And watch those trade routes disappear during wars.

Some people enjoy the micro management, and will thrive with BE, others who don't want to micromanage, can use the governors.

 

[TLHeart]

It was, I believe, a rhetorical question. This is all the same as what trade route doubters are saying about the still-remaining status quo except we are saying they are, still, quadruple of the yield they should be. So if "quadruple" is ok, why was "double" bad? If you believe the balance will just work itself out, just say so. That's your assertion, it's not an argument.

I said the AI would not mirror trade routes, and that is why they needed removed.

How do YOU know it is unbalance, all we have to go by is the preview builds, and only one excellent player and his style.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It is unbalanced because it is (apparently) a massive flat per city boost which seriously benefits wide.

Of course it is possible it is not all that flat but that brings up the other problem
There is no tooltip for Why those routes have those yields.

 

[ggmoyang]

I'm really tired of these 'we don't know before release' arguments...
Math is hard.

On topic, although trades are way batter than other sources it can't be patched right now. The game is balanced around having that trade routes, and if they're going to nerf it they'll have to change all the numbers.

 

[Lucius_]

I'm really tired of these 'we don't know before release' arguments...
Math is hard.

That argument is because information is being entirely based on theory which could be very different in practice.

We have not seen a serious tall game to compare to. We know every city gets trade routes which implies wide is the de facto best strategy, but are those benefits really benefits or simply counteracting the health penalties? If the player had 3 cities, large happiness surplus but obviously less trade routes, would both players be in the same place (tall health bonuses from high health vs. wide health penalties being countered by numerous trade routes.) Without seeing a small, tall empire in action, we only have half the equation to the balance question.

 

[ggmoyang]

Health over 10 gives +10% production and -50% intrigue bonus. Health under -10 have -10% to production, science, culture and +100% intrigue penalty. There isn't big difference here.

Yes, we don't know about over 20 bonus. But this would be hard to achieve if you don't go wide with prosperity.

 

[TLHeart]

It is unbalanced because it is (apparently) a massive flat per city boost which seriously benefits wide.

Of course it is possible it is not all that flat but that brings up the other problem
There is no tooltip for Why those routes have those yields.

not a flat bonus, a diminishing returns balance... madjinn has shown that internal trade routes decrease to NOTHING, as the cities become similar to each other.

 

[TLHeart]

Health over 10 gives +10% production and -50% intrigue bonus. Health under -10 have -10% to production, science, culture and +100% intrigue penalty. There isn't big difference here.

Yes, we don't know about over 20 bonus. But this would be hard to achieve if you don't go wide with prosperity.

you forgot the +10% science bonus for being healthy over 10.. and I think I saw 10% to culture also.

over 20 health, which madjinn had for a few turns in his recent play,
I have seen +20% science and production, and 200% reduction to their spies.

madjinn was loosing 12 to 24 science PER turn when he is unhealthy... and he is far behind the AI.

 

[jaldaen]

Perhaps we should ask MadDjinn to play a tall sponsor next time just to see what happens.

 

[ggmoyang]

you forgot the +10% science bonus for being healthy over 10.. and I think I saw 10% to culture also.

over 20 health, which madjinn had for a few turns in his recent play,
I have seen +20% science and production, and 200% reduction to their spies.

madjinn was loosing 12 to 24 science PER turn when he is unhealthy... and he is far behind the AI.

Science bonus while healthy is a virtue. Well, if you want to count that you can. No culture from being healthy.

Did he got 20+ health? At least I didn't saw that in his 5th vid. Did he played today?
But anyways, he wiil get 20+ because he did go wide.(after he grabs Eudaimonia) It would be harder to get 20+ with tall civ.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

not a flat bonus, a diminishing returns balance... madjinn has shown that internal trade routes decrease to NOTHING, as the cities become similar to each other.

If it is strictly yield difference, then effectively it is a Random flat bonus

 

[omniclast]

Would making internal trade routes use up 1 trade route slot in the target city, as well as the source city, make any difference? Seems like it would make sense given the lack of mirroring. Would also reduce the number of internal trade routes possible without creating a hard cap, and would perhaps balance it a bit more vs. external trade routes since more of them would be possible.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Would making internal trade routes use up 1 trade route slot in the target city, as well as the source city, make any difference? Seems like it would make sense given the lack of mirroring. Would also reduce the number of internal trade routes possible without creating a hard cap, and would perhaps balance it a bit more vs. external trade routes since more of them would be possible.

Management wise it would probably be easier to allow mirroring, but have internal routes only give benefits to one of the cities.

 

[ggmoyang]

20+ health benefit: +10% science and +10% culture

 

[Gokudo01]

20+ health benefit: +10% science and +10% culture

ok so at 20 + health you get :

+30% outpost grow
+10% production and -50% intrigue
+10% culture and +10% science.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

ok so at 20 + health you get :

+30% outpost grow
+10% production and -50% intrigue
+10% culture and +10% science.

I though it was +20% outpost grow?

But that is nice.

 

[GhostSalsa]

how is the yeild higher than international trade routes?
Internal gives food, and production to 2 cities...
International gives science and energy, which benefits your entire nation.

And, energy is only worth half of a hammer or food. And, internal TRs give you more of those double-value dots than you get energy from external TRs. And, hammers and food turn into science, but science can't turn into hammers without additional committed hammers and food. And, this "entire nation" distinction.. I just... what? I actually can only spend my energy in one place at a time. I actually can only apply new techs in one city at a time by building things in those cities with hammers, and having the population to work the tiles that get added perks, both of which, you may have noticed, require hammers and food, the yield of internal TRs. The distinction is pointless. It all feeds into everything else. Your empire is an organism.

Higher yield is better for the organism. Internal TRs are worth more than external, but you, yes, obviously, need some external to accelerate unlocking new buildings to build when your OP cities have already finished all the available ones 20 turns after being founded. Yes you need a balance. No the yields aren't balanced.

It doesn't matter that some internal TR options will flatline. Because, just move to the good ones - the game puts no real cost on this, so you are guaranteed enough good internal TR options to make their performance virtually optimal all the time.

"Hey, the game lets you choose 24 of 26 free bonuses all game, but it's ok because at any given moment 2 of the choices will be bad"? No. It's not ok. It's pointless because you're not really making a choice anymore.

Just take out iTRs and reduce hammer costs across the board for the literal same effect.