Apostolic Place Question

[KingLoraxII]

Just got BTS and the Apostolic Place is killing me - what tech do you need to build it? Its obviously no where I go on the tech tree....Two instances where it has screwed my diplomacy & gains.

1. I make friends with Isabella of all people (practically my only friend at this point) - kind of surprising but not complaining - she is easy to manipulate into warts, etc.....The Apostolic place leader votes for everyone to go to war against her - I vote NO and of course resolution passes and I get dragged into it - Now, what would have happened is I had voted - "NEVER - DEFY RESOLUTION". What diplo penalty would I get there?

2. I am Rameses II and of course I draw a spot on the map boxed betweened 4 civs and I have to fight my way out - I want to take out India but Shaka is to my south and I have to watch him. Monty, Augustus & Hannibal are in this game too - what a great place for Ramses huh? Anyways, I decide I HAVE to deal with Shaka since he has called my worst enemy and always says "I have enough on my hands right now" Which I gather is prepare for war with me. I take a key city choking him off and ready to march into the capital when I resolution comes up "Stop the War Against Shaka" by Asoka of all people and ALL the CIVS VOTE YES....!!!! Even those war mongers.

So this thing is killing me - although the 10 turns allow me to regroup and replenish my stacks - I need to know what opens up building this thing and get it built for more control.
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I will also say - I dont know about a Human bias - but its "really" hard to garner a triangle diplomacy - I would like to find some tips - I know I read a post on "triangle diplomacy" before I got into the game but I cant find it. Everything I do just seems to screw up - either showing my hand too early and not waiting for the battle lines to draw out....I cant get even pleased & friendly civs to vote for me in elections.

I wouldnt call it broken or bias - I just think its a challenge - a bit more strategy then just picking yes or no when asked for tribute etc....there are more ramifications - diplomacy SHOULDNT be easy.

 

[Justy]

You need Theology and a state religion to build the AP.

 

[Justy]

-deleted- (double post)

 

[mike p]

Funny, the AP saved me in my last game.

The Incas built it and were the only Buddhist nation, and on their own landmass.

I was also on my own landmass, reachable only after Astronomy, and the other five civs were all one happy religious block on the main continent.

Twice in the game, HC declared on me, landed massive stacks on my outlying islands. started bombarding my cities with cannon while 15+ infantry twiddled their thumbs and then HC used the AP to 'Stop the war against the Incans' before he could take my cities.

So he spent the rest of the game with about 20 infantry stranded on a one tile island which was the nearest neutral tile to my borders. Which made it so much easier to capture his capitol late in the game when I dog piled on after the Germans, Holy Romans, and assorted vassals declared on him, mopped up his fleet, and then killed off most of his non garrison units for me.

 

[Justy]

Funny, the AP saved me in my last game.

The Incas built it and were the only Buddhist nation, and on their own landmass.

I was also on my own landmass, reachable only after Astronomy, and the other five civs were all one happy religious block on the main continent.

Twice in the game, HC declared on me, landed massive stacks on my outlying islands. started bombarding my cities with cannon while 15+ infantry twiddled their thumbs and then HC used the AP to 'Stop the war against the Incans' before he could take my cities.

So he spent the rest of the game with about 20 infantry stranded on a one tile island which was the nearest neutral tile to my borders. Which made it so much easier to capture his capitol late in the game when I dog piled on after the Germans, Holy Romans, and assorted vassals declared on him, mopped up his fleet, and then killed off most of his non garrison units for me.

Looks like HC got cold feet. The AP Vote came around and he decided to take the out.

Nice to see someone who remembers The Whalers.

 

[batavier]

she is easy to manipulate into warts, etc...../QUOTE]

warts? Not Isabella. Maybe Victoria or Suvaryaman.

 

[KingLoraxII]

What happens if you capture the Apostalic Palace & destroy the civ that built it?

 

[ziamatt]

I have defied Apostolic Resolution before. I know you're cities get more anger because "the world considers you a villian." I'm not sure exactly what happens between you and other civilizations.

 

[eris]

What happens if you capture the Apostalic Palace & destroy the civ that built it?

You own the AP. However, it is still associated with whatever religion it had been built under. So, if it was a Hindu structure and you are not Hindu state religion, it is not going to do you much good. You will not even be able to run for Resident, which means you will not be able to control the proposed votes. If you have any Hindu structures such as Temples and such, they will still get you two extra hammers. If you are, in this example, Hindu state religion (or switch to it), then you get to run for Resident and all that. I do not know if there are any diplomatic modifiers for attacking the AP city.

 

[pop daddy]

Now, is it possible to win a diplomatic victory with the AP?

 

[Cutlass]

Now, is it possible to win a diplomatic victory with the AP?

It's a possibility to get the option to vote for it. I don't think it's too likely to get a win out of it unless your religion is really dominant.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I hear you - I've been playing a monarch game as one of the french guys and willem keeps declaring on me, killing some units, pillaging some, losing his stack cause he's an idiot then, when I'm counterattacking, hatty stops the war (willem, of course, votes yes, cause he's losing)

I got to cavs and said "screw this" and took out hatty (gaining three shrines in the process!!)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's a possibility to get the option to vote for it. I don't think it's too likely to get a win out of it unless your religion is really dominant.

Other way around. You want it as obscure as possible, and ideally nobody in it.

Captured AP is glitchy. It can "disappear" for 1000's of years as a result.

 

[Supr49er]

Welcome to the Forums ziamatt.

 

[aokces]

AP Question: If diplomatic victory option is off, can you still build the AP/UN and that particular resolution not appear, or can you not build it at all?

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

You can still build them, but the diplomatic victory option isn't there.

 

[Inky]

The tech for the AP is Theology, and it is a pretty powerful tech even without the AP if you're playing the religion game. With the AP, it has the potential to dominate the game. I will always go for the AP if I figure I have a shot at building it, though it is like the UN -- it can give your opponents control rather than you.

To build the AP, you also need a state religion. The AP is of whatever religion you are in when it finishes. You can't build it if you go free religion.

1) Defy resolution isn't as bad as with the UN, unless you have a lot of cities with that religion. Every city with that religion will have bonus unhappiness. If you only have a couple minor cities, defy away. It stops the resolution cold.


2) If Shaka is a full member (has the AP religion as state religion), then others of that religion in the AP may happily support ending the war. Even Shaka himself, even if he is winning. There is a minor diplo penalty, I think, for voting for something which causes harm (like declaring war or an embargo).


You can win a diplo victory with the AP. The easiest way is to have an obscure state religion, with just enough spread so everyone can vote but with you having the majority of the votes, plus one or more allies. One way to make this happen is to build it in a late religion (Christianity or Islam), then spread it widely to yourself (and perhaps to vassals), with one missionary to each other civ which doesn't have that. You may need to spread more, because you can't call a vote if you have more than enough votes to win it by yourself.

I won my last game via AP. I was in buddhism, which was fairly widespread but not dominant. I had two vassals with it. Vassals are nice, because they will automatically vote for you unless they are a candidate for win. I had friendly relations with others and bribed them to convert. The shared religion diplo bonus is very helpful here.

The AP is sensitive to state religion. Any civs which don't adopt that religion, or which go free religion, aren't in the club for candidacy or a lot of favors from its resolutions. By getting your competitors to drop the AP religion, you can gain control of it even if you aren't the world leader in AP population.

The trick is to make sure that you have enough votes on your side, and that your competitor isn't popular enough to beat you. This isn't easy, with either the AP or the UN.


Conquering the AP or even destroying it doesn't eliminate its effects. Just like the UN. If you own the AP, you'll be a candidate for office, but can't win a diplo victory unless you convert to the AP religion. A lot of resolutions are only available for civs with the AP religion. If no one has that religion, its power is defused.

If the diplomatic victory is off, the AP and UN can't be built.

 

[UWHabs]

I had a game recently which was a great AP win. Me (Hammurabi), Brennus, Zara, and Ragnar were all on one continent. Brennus founds Buddhism early, which spreads to Zara and myself, so we both adopt it to get like +12 with Brennus by the end of it. Ragnar founds a different religion, and gets into a few fights with Zara. The other continent didn't found ANY religions.

So, I'm friendly with both Zara and Brennus, so I think, "Hmm, maybe an AP win would be cool". I found Christianity, and build the AP in it. Then spread that to all my cities, and to Brennus'. Right after I build the AP, I switch back to keep good relations with Brennus. I have the top pop, so I end up in the chair. I rush to get 3 caravels, with one missionary on each. Unload them in one city each of the people on the other island, and when the vote for winner comes up, Brennus votes for me and I win.

Somewhat sad in that I explicitly went to play as an aggressive civ since I wanted to try it out. And in the end, I never attacked anyone (although I may have been at war with Ragnar, but he was on the complete other side of the continent).