Apparently, vaccination is rape

The details aside, telling someone "If you break this law, you'll be punished for it" isn't really a threat in my eyes - but rather a reminder that you shouldn't break the law. But I don't want to argue about semantics or whatever. You guys continue. :)
 
The details aside, telling someone "If you break this law, you'll be punished for it" isn't really a threat in my eyes - but rather a reminder that you shouldn't break the law. But I don't want to argue about semantics or whatever. You guys continue. :)

You're right, that is just a reminder, not a threat. It's just that in this case we are talking about a situation not currently covered by law. Some people want there to be a law, and we are discussing what threat of punishment would be appropriate to enforce such a law.
 
Right. And the discussion at hand is "should we make a law (with attendant threat of consequences) to make people do what Valka wants them to do?" In favor we have "it would reduce a risk that is already minimal." In opposition we have "it would force people who don't want to take a different but also minimal risk to do so."

I think any effort to use the already overloaded with stupid minutiae legal system to resolve an issue that is of minimal consequence either way is silly.
How about not pinning this all on me, 'k? :huh: I'm far from the only person in the world in favor of mandatory vaccination except for cases of legitimate medical exemptions.

Conform to our will over this issue of minor threat. If you don't, we're going to make it more difficult for your children to have a prosperous life? Public education is a right, but only if you're right-minded.

How is this not a threat?
Oh. For. Crying. Out. Loud.

I'll give you a case where kids are being denied a public education because they're not "right-minded." There are places in Alberta where atheist kids are being publicly shamed for opting out of religious instruction and they don't have the option of attending a non-Catholic school because there isn't one that offers their grade(s). The parents try to find some kind of common ground for that, and they've been trying to get a non-Catholic school set up... and you know what their Christian neighbors tell them? "Suck it up or move." :huh:

So I'm not particularly in the mood to cater to people who don't have any reasonable excuse to opt out of vaccinating their kids. If they don't want to, they can home-school. Or they can move.

One encouraging thing I've read about our new NDP government here: They're in favor of mandatory vaccinations.

The question of whether to call it "punishment" or "threat of punishment" isn't really a major issue, is it?

The point is that the discussion at hand is about creating or modifying law so that Valka gets her way or not. I do not find Valka's argument that there should be a law that adds a minimal risk there in order to further reduce a minimal risk here. I think such a law would have a minimal effect not worth the effort of creating it and enforcing it.
Run this argument past a young couple whose infant died of whooping cough because it was exposed and caught the disease. Then come back and let me know how that conversation went.
 
I'll give you a case where kids are being denied a public education because they're not "right-minded." There are places in Alberta where atheist kids are being publicly shamed for opting out of religious instruction and they don't have the option of attending a non-Catholic school because there isn't one that offers their grade(s). The parents try to find some kind of common ground for that, and they've been trying to get a non-Catholic school set up... and you know what their Christian neighbors tell them? "Suck it up or move." :huh:

So I'm not particularly in the mood to cater to people who don't have any reasonable excuse to opt out of vaccinating their kids. If they don't want to, they can home-school. Or they can move.

Well meaning people all have their own ways of trying to force the world to be a better place for them. And they don't even. need. to. cry. out. loud. it. is. just. an. acknowledgement. that. yes. people. do. force. their. pet. issues. on. other. people. with. coercive. government. from. time. to. time.
 
How about not pinning this all on me, 'k? :huh: I'm far from the only person in the world in favor of mandatory vaccination except for cases of legitimate medical exemptions.


For anyone who has not been adding the 'et al' every time I mention Valka, please start.


Run this argument past a young couple whose infant died of whooping cough because it was exposed and caught the disease. Then come back and let me know how that conversation went.

I would have to find one first. While they do exist, they are no more common than people who have a genuine vaccination reaction horror story. That's why I keep saying this debate is about one minimal risk vs another minimal risk and doesn't warrant any lawmaking.
 
For anyone who has not been adding the 'et al' every time I mention Valka, please start.
How about you just go back and edit your posts to include "et. al", then? :huh:


I would have to find one first. While they do exist, they are no more common than people who have a genuine vaccination reaction horror story. That's why I keep saying this debate is about one minimal risk vs another minimal risk and doesn't warrant any lawmaking.
I'll find this for you. Since I learned of this tragic situation via my newsfeed, I guess it's unreasonable to ask you to actively search.
 
It is tragic news- but that doesn't make it a statistically significant occurrence. If one out of every ten million kids die from a disease, that is sad, but that doesn't make that disease significant enough to warrant panic.
 
How about you just go back and edit your posts to include "et. al", then? :huh:

I think it was obvious enough all along, really. Consider it a compliment to your fine spokesmanship.

I'll find this for you. Since I learned of this tragic situation via my newsfeed, I guess it's unreasonable to ask you to actively search.

The point wasn't having you find it because I'm lazy, the point was that while finding one isn't impossible it is also not impossible to find the rare individuals with genuine vaccination horror stories either. Making new laws to deal with minimal risk factors when the new law would create some other minimal risk factor just doesn't make sense.

My condolences to those who have been so unlucky...on the receiving end of consequences from either of the minimal risks in question.
 
These are anti-vaccine adherents' excuses, not mine. Of course when I was a little kid I had an aversion to needles - after all, they hurt. And it was undignified getting it in the bare backside. Nowadays they try not to humiliate kids like that, I hope.
They're not accurate representations of anti-vaccine positions. They're containers in your mental sorting system (combined with allergies and assumedly underused 'medical exemption.'). At least 'pseudoscience' offers the promise of some sort of refutation.

Once I actually understood the purpose and importance of vaccinations, I didn't mind them. And yeah, it is pretty damn selfish of someone to not make sure they/their child are immunized against diseases. By not doing so, they're putting other people at risk.
And in their estimation, they're putting themselves at risk by inoculating, when the others specifically worried about catching the diseases still have the option to inoculate.

Whether private school or home school, they are whining about spending ALL THAT MONEY!!! to avoid something that would be a lot cheaper, and over and done with in minutes.
I cannot speak for norms in your area, but homeschooling isn't that much more expensive locally, in terms of money.

That's ridiculous. Is it "thuggish" or "threatening" to refuse to allow people without current immunizations to travel freely between countries if the destination country requires travelers to have those immunizations?
If the suggestion is that the origin country does not have these restrictions, then I'd lean no. I'd just be left wondering if these travelers really needed to visit the destination country in question.

Then why is it "thuggish" or "threatening" to require kids to have current immunizations to attend school?
Unlike the international travel analogy, a kid is essentially in need of an education, so if the kid does not go to a public/private school, an alternative has to be found. Homeschool can work if the parents have time in their schedule to manage it, but if not, public schools become the only option (unless affluent enough for private schools that can avoid legal restrictions imposed by state funding). If the homeschool option is unworkable (or rendered impossible through new legislation :deal:), then it's between vaccination and repatriation (with all the costs of moving to a new location and seeking new work, plus whatever added difficulties learning a new language will bring). Of course, most anti-vaxxers will balk at that measure as long as more convenient alternatives exist. The threat is found in the method of persuasion being pursued (ie let us inject your children, or we'll stunt their education), which does little to ameliorate anti-vaxxer concerns (or understand them :scan:).

***

Your condescension is noted. :rolleyes:
Cleaning and polishing the mirror has its moments.

Taking other peoples' health into account is not some wacky thing to do - it's the civilized thing to do, and applies to many situations besides that of vaccines. I used to be a feast organizer in our local SCA branch. One of our members was deathly allergic to garlic, the way some people can die from a miniscule exposure to peanuts. I could have told the cooks "who cares about him - we love garlic, it's a common ingredient in our recipes, it's what a lot of people like, and if this guy doesn't like it he can stay home, or eat his own food outside." But I didn't do that. I told the cooks "we are going to do our utmost to accommodate peoples' allergies. So find a substitute." And we did. All feasts that I was in charge of planning were completely garlic-free.
One anti-vaxxer variant of that could be a sublethal dose of arsenic in nearly every dish, substituting crushed cyanide pills for those suspected of being too sensitive to arsenic, and so on if more substitutions (all still being sublethal) are needed. Make sure to highlight the innovation in taste caused by these additions, if someone asks.

I'll give you a case where kids are being denied a public education because they're not "right-minded." There are places in Alberta where atheist kids are being publicly shamed for opting out of religious instruction and they don't have the option of attending a non-Catholic school because there isn't one that offers their grade(s). The parents try to find some kind of common ground for that, and they've been trying to get a non-Catholic school set up... and you know what their Christian neighbors tell them? "Suck it up or move." :huh:
Add another tally to the Christian hypocrisy column. Also note: Mandatory "Catholic Education."

So I'm not particularly in the mood to cater to people who don't have any reasonable excuse to opt out of vaccinating their kids. If they don't want to, they can home-school. Or they can move.
The prospect of an increase in emigration wouldn't be all that disappointing.
 
Actually, I consider it harassment.

That is par for the thread. Not so subtle intimidation of the opposing viewpoint has become policy.

For the record, I consider it every parent's responsibility to vaccinate their children. However, short of repealing Roe v Wade and subsequent law, I do not see any way of compelling it.

J
 
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