Arabia First Look Video (Saladin)

@Krajzen

Yeah, my beef with the other abilities isn't that they're poor but they're uninspiring to play. I get the play the game the same way I would if I didn't have these civ abilities and benefit from some extra science and faith, and some units that will live longer in wars.
 
It's hard for me to imagine that Firaxis created an entire race machanic around getting prophets, religions and beliefs and there is no benefit to being early.

I think the race is about getting a religion at all and thus competing for a victory type you could not pursue or defend against the other way. Placements in the race are clearly secondary or even redundant. Also: you get the last prophet at the same time as the other civ gets the second to last prophet. This is much earlier than the last prophet would usually come.
And also: it's hard to think about a historically more fitting UA for Arabia (except if the name of the Prophet would always be the same, but he cannot be included in Civ games sadly). But it screams Arabia/Caliphate so loudly through the whole game!
 
At any rate, I'll be renaming the religion to Dislam (i.e; Not Islam), per usual :crazyeye:

I always prefer to play as Islam but turn it into progressive, humanist religion, bonus points for being pacifist, to counter what become of it after fall from the golden age in real life :p This is satisfying because feels as if you actually changed the course of history for the better :p

@Krajzen
Yeah, my beef with the other abilities isn't that they're poor but they're uninspiring to play. I get the play the game the same way I would if I didn't have these civ abilities and benefit from some extra science and faith, and some units that will live longer in wars.

"Units that will live longer" is unfair to Mamluks (btw in civ5 units with healing bonuses - carolean, immortal, janissaries - were regarded as good or one of best units in the game :p ), you could trivialize other units in the same way, for example this description fits legions which have the only combat advantage (beyond other UUs as they all seem to have base +5 combat) in the form of forts with +4 defense bonus. Or say Eagle Warriors are "builders that can fight" (they have no combat bonus at all, just spawn builders from defeated units).
Self healing is quite good ability because it allows units on being very mobile and not stopping to heal, and it can impact the combat itself quite easily (auto healing between turns means ability to survive otherwise killing blows, or prevent combat penalty from low health).

Arabian unique building is not worse from the majority of other civs unique buildings which either provide similar adjacency bonuses or, even more boring, just flat out yield bonuses (Greek and Roman building, for example). At least with adjacency you may play with the placement of districts.

Very cheap and very strong religious buildings impact the development strategy no less than automatic free stuff for Rome (yay free auto monument, so deep strategy :p ), while guaranteed prophet allows on shifting the strategy early game and pursuing other goals with still having religion in the future.
 
But on a huge map, there will be just 1 believe, because you have 7 religions, no?

Yeah I forgot to add that. But I think vast majority of players/posters do play on standard map, so it is fair to judge civs on these terms.

But even on huge, the only issue is last follower belief, and they all seems fine. At least, they seem much better balanced than let's say pantheons in Civ 5, where half of them were pure trash anytime and half of rest were situational.
 
ALL civs are strong if played right.
Well, I was saying that strong players play well, even without a strong hand. Not exactly what in that your statement is trying to refute.

Those of you who think that being guaranteed last prophet is not that good (or even bad) because you only get some "bad" beliefs don't understand how religion works this time.

On standard map there seem to be again 8 civs and 5 religions. There are 7 followers beliefs, which you choose first, and than common pool of 21 beliefs, from which you choose only one when founding religion. These are of three types: 7 buildings (worship beliefs), 7 founders beliefs, and 7 "spread" beliefs.

So, on standard map if you choose last you have missed 4/7 followers beliefs and 4/21 other beliefs.

We don't have any experience, but follower beliefs seem to be different but equally good, and maybe 2 of them are situational (wonders and relics). So either way you get something good.
So, the race to found a religion isn't as much of a race in Civ VI? I have to hope you are wrong. This was an exciting competitive element that Gods & Kings introduced. Getting first draft pick on beliefs *should* be advantageous. Coming in late *should* have a notable impact.

I think the race is about getting a religion at all and thus competing for a victory type you could not pursue or defend against the other way. Placements in the race are clearly secondary or even redundant.
Well, when placing in a race doesn't matter, as long as you finish...that kinda makes the race a lot less enticing.
 
Here is an excellent article on the subject of Arab scientific achievements. While the author is somewhat more charitable than myself on certain points, I believe he has done an admirable job overall. Here are the opening few paragraphs:

Why the Arabic World turned away from Science

Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. President Obama, for instance, in his June 4, 2009 speech in Cairo, praised Muslims for their historical scientific and intellectual contributions to civilization:

It was Islam that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe’s Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed.

Such tributes to the Arab world’s era of scientific achievement are generally made in service of a broader political point, as they usually precede discussion of the region’s contemporary problems. They serve as an implicit exhortation: the great age of Arab science demonstrates that there is no categorical or congenital barrier to tolerance, cosmopolitanism, and advancement in the Islamic Middle East.

To anyone familiar with this Golden Age, roughly spanning the eighth through the thirteenth centuries a.d., the disparity between the intellectual achievements of the Middle East then and now — particularly relative to the rest of the world — is staggering indeed. In his 2002 book What Went Wrong?, historian Bernard Lewis notes that “for many centuries the world of Islam was in the forefront of human civilization and achievement.” “Nothing in Europe,” notes Jamil Ragep, a professor of the history of science at the University of Oklahoma, “could hold a candle to what was going on in the Islamic world until about 1600.” Algebra, algorithm, alchemy, alcohol, alkali, nadir, zenith, coffee, and lemon: these words all derive from Arabic, reflecting Islam’s contribution to the West.

Today, however, the spirit of science in the Muslim world is as dry as the desert. Pakistani physicist Pervez Amirali Hoodbhoy laid out the grim statistics in a 2007 Physics Today article: Muslim countries have nine scientists, engineers, and technicians per thousand people, compared with a world average of forty-one. In these nations, there are approximately 1,800 universities, but only 312 of those universities have scholars who have published journal articles. Of the fifty most-published of these universities, twenty-six are in Turkey, nine are in Iran, three each are in Malaysia and Egypt, Pakistan has two, and Uganda, the U.A.E., Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Kuwait, Jordan, and Azerbaijan each have one.

There are roughly 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, but only two scientists from Muslim countries have won Nobel Prizes in science (one for physics in 1979, the other for chemistry in 1999). Forty-six Muslim countries combined contribute just 1 percent of the world’s scientific literature; Spain and India each contribute more of the world’s scientific literature than those countries taken together. In fact, although Spain is hardly an intellectual superpower, it translates more books in a single year than the entire Arab world has in the past thousand years. “Though there are talented scientists of Muslim origin working productively in the West,” Nobel laureate physicist Steven Weinberg has observed, “for forty years I have not seen a single paper by a physicist or astronomer working in a Muslim country that was worth reading.”

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-the-arabic-world-turned-away-from-science
 
Science and religion is fine as a portrayal of Arabia, and having Cairo as the capital city is appropriate, but Saladin's LUA really doesn't reflect what Saladin was primarily known for, a.k.a. defeating the Crusaders in major battles, with such success that Richard the Lionhearted and Barbarossa were summoned to attack him.

Portraying him as a scholar is fine as it suits Arabia, but there was a real missed opportunity to make Arabia more flexible and interesting. Military bonuses and trade bonuses in particular would have been appropriate, and I can't help but feel Civ V's Arabia was a slightly more iconic picture of what we think of when we think of Arabia (wealth, caravans).
 
Well, when placing in a race doesn't matter, as long as you finish...that kinda makes the race a lot less enticing.

I agree with you, but to me that's how it looks just now. It's very important to have a religion at all. The beliefs are more of a 'nice to have.' Of course, if you can choose from 7 beliefs, you can choose one that fits your terrain/strategy perfectly, and less so if you choose from 3 beliefs. But since none of them is really lame, 2nd might be as good as 5th if you miss out on the one that would be perfect for you.
I can see the race for religion being also about buying GPs to get them earlier/for sure. So Arabia also saves gold/faith that others might spend. You surely never rush buy a GP with Arabia...
 
Also: you get the last prophet at the same time as the other civ gets the second to last prophet. This is much earlier than the last prophet would usually come.

I don't see anything significant about this fact. If I intended to play religion without Arabia, I wouldn't be aiming to gain the last prophet anyway. Nobody aims to get the last prophet and is then happy that they did so sooner than otherwise. If the ability is bad, then it's somewhat less bad. If the ability is great, then is slightly even more great. But that fact on its own doesn't really mean much to me.
 
"Units that will live longer" is unfair to Mamluks (btw in civ5 units with healing bonuses - carolean, immortal, janissaries - were regarded as good or one of best units in the game :p ), you could trivialize other units in the same way


Arabian unique building is not worse from the majority of other civs unique buildings

Again, I'm not speaking to their effectiveness. I'm simply speaking of whether strategic options are opened up the player. Do I have choices to make that I otherwise wouldn't?
 
Nicely designed civ, both visually and mechanically. Oh, and look, the "Islamic Golden Age never happened" argument has cropped up again. :p
 
So, the race to found a religion isn't as much of a race in Civ VI? I have to hope you are wrong. This was an exciting competitive element that Gods & Kings introduced.

I somewhat disagree with this. I'd rather the race simply be about whether you get a religion at all rather than the bonuses for beliefs being ranked and many being sub-par.
 
Will their unit heal ability at the end of a turn and the promotion heal when you do a unit promotion stack?
 
Personally, I'm looking for some civ's that actually have a high skill cap, that has some component to master.
The most important skill in Civ is the ability to adapt to whatever situation and conditions the map/game throws at you. With Arabia you are dealt something for free, but since you get last picks of beliefs, the benefits are kind of randomized every game. The skill element consists of how well you can incorporate whatever hand you are dealt into your overall strategy. In a way I find this quite interesting. You cannot plan your perfect strategy right from the start, but are forced to adapt to new circumstances and re-evaluate your priorities when you eventually get that free prophet.

On a side note, you get the last prophet, but that doesn't necessarily mean the last religion, right? Someone could buy the second last prophet but not make it to a holy site to found a religion the same turn.
 
On a side note, you get the last prophet, but that doesn't necessarily mean the last religion, right? Someone could buy the second last prophet but not make it to a holy site to found a religion the same turn.

Where does it appear? Always in the capital? I can't remember how it was. Would make sense to appear directly at the holy site, no?
 
Nicely designed civ, both visually and mechanically. Oh, and look, the "Islamic Golden Age never happened" argument has cropped up again. :p

My thoughts exactly.

Also re: Saladin being a Kurd. He was also quite culturally Arab in the grander sense of Arab civilization and language. No problems for me - I'm looking forward to seeing Saladin in game.

EDIT: As for last shot at beliefs. There are more options than there are religions. You may not get what would have been your first choice but you can still make plenty of adjustment to your priorities based upon what belief choices are still available. It's more "adapt to the map" style strategy.
 
Cool design. I like a religious civ with an alternate play style where you don't actually have to focus on religion from the beginning. That said, I'm not sure it's altogether that strong, since you generally won't have access to beliefs of your choice at that point. Compared to just ignoring religion altogether and accepting whatever faith other civs spread to you, I don't see why this is all that much better unless the founder beliefs are especially strong (assuming you are not going for religious victory). Additionally, if religious beliefs generally add flat amounts of yields, they become relatively less important to overall output over time, and therefore matter less the later you get them, meaning being able to get them later on isn't all that helpful.
 
Here is an excellent article on the subject of Arab scientific achievements. While the author is somewhat more charitable than myself on certain points, I believe he has done an admirable job overall. Here are the opening few paragraphs:





http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-the-arabic-world-turned-away-from-science

I think the list is about Islamic achivements, rather than Arabic. Also, the point here isn't neccessarily that it was Arabs that furthered the science, it was people under the patronage of Arabs. You've spoken about Persians, Christians and Jews being behind many of the scientific discoveries during the Islamic golden age. I don't know whether it's true or not but quite frankly, it doesn't matter. They did it in the "Arab empire".

By your logic Pedro's great people ability isn't realistic because the great people he patronaged weren't Brazilian.

E: Now for Arabia itself, I think people are thinking about this the wrong way around. I think building holy sites quite early will still be important. Not neccessarily as early as you normally would, but still early. Not only can you use the fait to get another type of a great person, you can also save all of the faith and then when you actually get your religion, you have much "currency" to get missionaries and apostles with.
 
Where does it appear? Always in the capital? I can't remember how it was. Would make sense to appear directly at the holy site, no?

The prophet appeared in city center in the video, he then walked to the holy site to found a religion
 
Back
Top Bottom