Arabia

[Strec]

I agree that the starting bias sometine generated is surprising

In the case here there are some other factor with the generator :

• There are rarely horses in the desert and Arabia without horses ....
• For the UB sometimes I've seen incense but never see sugar in desert
• When a miracle make a horse poping in desert generaly the tile is transformed in plain (generally but not ever)

Note that to do the test of arabia I start in classical area so Desert Folklore is competitive because I have all tech to improve but in normal game it's definitively not.

 

[Funak]

The key problem with Arabia isn't really the UA, but rather the fickleness of the map generator. Other civs with map-specific UAs (like the Iroquois or Inca) can get away with it because their needed features/terrain/plots are nigh-universal. Arabia, not so much. This is definitely on my mind, so don't think I've given up on tweaking Arabia a bit more.

That's the problem of specialization.

By the way, speaking of desert folklore/dance of the aurora, aren't they underperforming a bit? Really rarely see anyone picking them up actually forming a religion.
How about letting them provide faith before improving the tiles (all tiles with resources on them).

 

[Strec]

Looked at the communitas.lua and done 2 modifications. The concerned zone is between lines 111 and 138

Spoiler :

	-- Rain
	mglobal.marshPercent			= 0.10 -- Percent chance increase for marsh from each nearby watery tile 
										   --    junglePercent to 1 : marsh
	mglobal.junglePercent			= 0.65 --    junglePercent to 1 : jungle
	mglobal.zeroTreesPercent		= 0.30 -- zeroTreesPercent to 1 : forest
										   -- 	 plainsPercent to 1 : grass
--	mglobal.plainsPercent			= 0.50 -- 	 desertPercent to plainsPercent : plains
--	mglobal.desertPercent			= 0.25 --				 0 to desertPercent : desert

										   -- 	 plainsPercent to 1 : grass
	mglobal.plainsPercent			= 0.65 -- 	 desertPercent to plainsPercent : plains
	mglobal.desertPercent			= 0.40 --				 0 to desertPercent : desert
	
	
	-- Temperature
	mglobal.jungleMinTemperature	= 0.72 -- jungle:  jungleMinTemperature	to 1
--	mglobal.desertMinTemperature	= 0.42 -- desert:  desertMinTemperature	to 1
	mglobal.desertMinTemperature	= 0.52 -- desert:  desertMinTemperature	to 1

										   -- grass:      tundraTemperature to 1
										   -- plains:     tundraTemperature to 1
	mglobal.tundraTemperature		= 0.30 -- tundra: 		snowTemperature to tundraTemperature
	mglobal.snowTemperature			= 0.18 -- snow:   					  0 to snowTemperature

	mglobal.treesMinTemperature		= 0.18 -- trees:	treesMinTemperature to 1
	mglobal.forestRandomPercent		= 0.07 -- Percent of barren flatland which randomly gets a forest
	mglobal.forestTundraPercent		= 0.30 -- Percent of barren tundra   which randomly gets a forest

Upped the number of desert tiles against plains but upped too the needed temperature so you generally have deserts zones in the equatorial band and some little others in some hot spots (generally near sea).

To test and tweak

 

[Senteliks]

It's not wise to mess with global variables , until you understand what you are doing exactly by examining carefully entire script to see what they affect and what's their role.This script is complex it's not one of those where you can plug in, mess with it and get desired results.

Don't mean to be rude here but maybe leave this to someone who know what is really doing ?

 

[Strec]

It's not wise to mess with global variables , until you understand what you are doing exactly by examining carefully entire script to see what they affect and what's their role.This script is complex it's not one of those where you can plug in, mess with it and get desired results.

Don't mean to be rude here but maybe leave this to someone who know what is really doing ?

It was my job when I had one and It's my hobby on Bethesda Software. But thanks for the advice

For now the problem is that you can't upper too much the number of desert tiles because the min temperature have not enough impact to compensate. We must look more to see exactly how temperature is managed before going farer.

 

[Strec]

Ok, I let go, Arabia is for now as it is unplayable to be competitive in Immortal mode. I'll let my tuning of the map as I did and test other random civ (just randomized -> dutch)

Conclusion :

• If you have not enough desert UA is worthless
• If you don't have horses UU is worthless
• The UB seems correct (if no spice of sugar you can miss production, depends other resources you have, but is useable and balanced.

So if you don't have a map with enough desert and horses you won't compete. Food is ok (if you have some flood plains or oasis, but it's frequent) but generally you are low in production.

Let's try William

 

[Funak]

By the way, big G, did the yields from deserts get nerfed at some point?
This commotion made me want to try Arabia out, but all desert-road-tiles are still just at 1/1/1 in medieval era. I've even reloaded the game to test if that fixed it (I think it did last time I had this problem) but that didn't do anything either.



Now, 6 techs later my tiles update. What is the triggering factor behind the tiles changing?

 

[Strec]

Problem is not that, problem is to find a desert

 

[Strigvir]

The key problem with Arabia isn't really the UA
G

But it is? Desert is the useless terrain for the most civs, being only outclassed by snow.

 

[Daya]

Still think variations of my idea would mostly fix arabia.

For example imagine:
UI "Beduin encampment" replaces UB Bazaar
- May only be build on flat resourceless tiles adjacent to or on desert. Not adjacent to another Beduin encampment.
- Unlocks at calender
- +1 Food, +1 Culture, +1 Faith
- Progressively turns adjacent tiles into desert, based on city culture output (similar to border growth) and number of desert tiles already in city's borders (more desert tiles would slow it down)

You could strategically expand the desert along trade routes along traderoutes/city-connections for UA, along rivers for flood plaines, on resources for desert folklore pantheon (which would make it a more viable pick).
As a side note the UI grants faith, synergizing very well with the low-faith pantheon desert folklore and hopefully satisfying the needs of a slightly more faith-leaning arabia (with desert folklore it currently seems to be extremely unlikely to get a religion up).
And additionaly it would not be too far off lore-wise. In later game stages you would end up with an appropriate desert landscape sprinkled with some beduins und trade-caravans. I think this would resemble arabia pretty well.

I can't image that arabian gameplay wouldn't benefit from such a change.

The only other way i see would be to make the communitas mapscript spawn more deserts and improve arabia's spawn location. However more deserts in general could hurt other civs, since no one except arabia can effectivly use them.

 

[Strec]

Still think variations of my idea would mostly fix arabia.

For example imagine:
UI "Beduin encampment" replaces UB Bazaar
- May only be build on flat resourceless tiles adjacent to or on desert. Not adjacent to another Beduin encampment.
- Unlocks at calender
- +1 Food, +1 Culture, +1 Faith
- Progressively turns adjacent tiles into desert, based on city culture output (similar to border growth) and number of desert tiles already in city's borders (more desert tiles would slow it down)

You could strategically expand the desert along trade routes along traderoutes/city-connections for UA, along rivers for flood plaines, on resources for desert folklore pantheon (which would make it a more viable pick).
As a side note the UI grants faith, synergizing very well with the low-faith pantheon desert folklore and hopefully satisfying the needs of a slightly more faith-leaning arabia (with desert folklore it currently seems to be extremely unlikely to get a religion up).
And additionaly it would not be too far off lore-wise. In later game stages you would end up with an appropriate desert landscape sprinkled with some beduins und trade-caravans. I think this would resemble arabia pretty well.

I can't image that arabian gameplay wouldn't benefit from such a change.

The only other way i see would be to make the communitas mapscript spawn more deserts and improve arabia's spawn location. However more deserts in general could hurt other civs, since no one except arabia can effectivly use them.

I think that managing such terrain change would be very time consumming and difficult to code so I'm not sure it's a good idea to do if it concerns only one civ. But I'll wait what says Gazebo technically on the subject (In my mind I have idea that terraforming in-game is not possible, even IGE ask to restart the map when you change some terrain).

Secondly it does not resolve the production problem arabia often have.

Third it's to powerful. You replace the UB with one sort of multiple UBs

Eventually the UI you propose could be :

• Transform a flat desert tile in an oasis giving +1 prod and +1 faith.
• Give +1 culture later (to see on which tech)

But I think that some small changes on the UB would be sufficient and better than changing to an AI :

Current :

• +1 gold every 4 citizen in the city
• +1 gold and +1 production from spices and sugar.
• Trade route gain 50% range. +1 gold for TR owner and city owner

Would be :

• +1 production and +1 faith every 4 citizen in the city
• Trade route gain 50% range. +1 gold for TR owner and city owner

But it don't solve the problem of the map generation that must be adapted to have more desert and at least one horse for Arabia.

 

[Daya]

I think that managing such terrain change would be very time consumming and difficult to code so I'm not sure it's a good idea to do if it concerns only one civ. But I'll wait what says Gazebo technically on the subject (In my mind I have idea that terraforming in-game is not possible, even IGE ask to restart the map when you change some terrain).

Secondly it does not resolve the production problem arabia often have.

Third it's to powerful. You replace the UB with one sort of multiple UBs

In terms of time consumption and coding I agree that it could get problematic.
However I dont see it as overly powerful. You can not have traderoutes/city connection on every tile and lots of Food/Production from terrain would be lost if it would become a one-gold-desert. On the other hand one could easily alter yields from such a new UI (making it for example just +1 Faith +1 Production, + possibly more production through techs). I feel like transforming deserts would really incentivise thinking about strategic placement of this possible UI
I am just really trying to make the desert theme work

 

[Strec]

Started a new game with last version.

Tryed 10 launch and can't have any desert.

Retablished my version of communitas lua to have some desert.

Launched 5 maps to have decent desert (but no resources on him, just oasis). Build town and culture, seen that when claiming desert tile don't anymore claim the other, quit.

The second Religion in the World (soon the first) and creator of the Islam have nothing concerning religion. You explain that there are enough religion oriented in the mod. I doubt it's a good choice but why not, I try.

Now, Arabia (Not only Mecca) is not principally in desert and have very few profit from it. Didn't try, just hoping they have some petrol...

From the moment we are not on a community patch with discussed and concerted choices I see no interest in continuing to test or launch ideas or debates, that would only badly interfere in the dev.

I'll continue to read the threads because it's a very good mod and I wish you much success.

 

[Gazebo]

From the moment we are not on a community patch with discussed and concerted choices I see no interest in continuing to test or launch ideas or debates, that would only badly interfere in the dev.

Wait, what? Are you saying that, because your ideas on Arabia weren't followed, you don't want to be involved anymore? That's fine, but realize that there's a long process of discussion and consensus that most changes stem from.

Also, your argument concerning religion and Arabia smacks of determinism. By that logic, England's UA should be "Immediately conquer 1/4 of the world's population at the beginning of the game," and the Mongols should get "Start with 300 Mounted Archers." The point of the UA is theme, not historical determinism.

G

 

[Strec]

Didn't say anything like that and was not so negative, or I did not well exprim.

Concerning the Arabia religion (I'm not muslim) but Catholicism, Islam and Indouism can't be ignored. Note too, that I did finally accept in previous messages the non-faith fact and the argument that Desert Folklore can be used (if you have resources on desert but you have near never desert so ...)

What chocked me is not MY ideas are not used, after all I'm not better than another and often my ideas are not so good, but I see no discusion on what you did in the patch, the only opinion you have done is that it can only be made by modifying the map generator.

The solution choosen is to remove nearly all interest on desert and make Arabian a plain tiles conqueror. It evidently be well received because nobody like desert, ok. But wich is now the specificity or Arabia? Why anyone would choose Arabia?

Again, I prefer retire because else I would only penalize the dev by exposing idea and debatting with no interest and making you lost your time.

And I repeat, you do a vey good job and it's a very good mod, I don't searh perfection, continue

 

[Gazebo]

Didn't say anything like that and was not so negative, or I did not well exprim.

Concerning the Arabia religion (I'm not muslim) but Catholicism, Islam and Indouism can't be ignored. Note too, that I did finally accept in previous messages the non-faith fact and the argument that Desert Folklore can be used (if you have resources on desert but you have near never desert so ...)

What chocked me is not MY ideas are not used, after all I'm not better than another and often my ideas are not so good, but I see no discusion on what you did in the patch, the only opinion you have done is that it can only be made by modifying the map generator.

The solution choosen is to remove nearly all interest on desert and make Arabian a plain tiles conqueror. It evidently be well received because nobody like desert, ok. But wich is now the specificity or Arabia? Why anyone would choose Arabia?

Again, I prefer retire because else I would only penalize the dev by exposing idea and debatting with no interest and making you lost your time.

And I repeat, you do a vey good job and it's a very good mod, I don't searh perfection, continue

Your ideas are definitely welcome. I don't think this is an issue of map generation alone, but I do think that Arabia's dual-focus as a Desert/Plains civ makes good use of their historical theme (large sections of the Arabian peninsula are plains, and they are critical to the area's existence), and allows them to build up powerful trade connections overland via their UA and their UB. This is a foundation for them to go for a Religion, if they want, or anything else really.

Choosing Arabia gives you, essentially, a UA that is the inverse of Portgual's tradeship- focused UA. You get loads of bonuses from caravans, making your trade routes essential, thus meaning that you have to manage your neighbors (and barbs!) well. If you go for religion, you have a good way of spreading it passively via trade.

The double move in desert and plains is icing on the cake, making the Arabs equally dangerous at war (and making their workers/settlers very quick to get around!).

G

 

[Finarvi]

I'm concerned about double move on plains. Didn't try that but maybe double move on plains inside your territory would be better?

It's just very unintuitive. Double move on deserts is OK as it costs more to move over them.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

It would be cool if units would take damage if they end their turn in deserts, (between 10 and 20%) perhaps.
Arabia could then be immune to that.
Unfortunately, that would mean that you cannot improve resources in deserts (or have to rotate workers out every few turns, which is annoying also).

 

[Funak]

It would be cool if units would take damage if they end their turn in deserts, (between 10 and 20%) perhaps.
Arabia could then be immune to that.
Unfortunately, that would mean that you cannot improve resources in deserts (or have to rotate workers out every few turns, which is annoying also).

Sounds way too annoying honestly. The movement-slowing effect that CPP added is really painful enough as it is

 

[Gazebo]

Arabia is getting a slight tweak in next version. Taking away Plains double movement, and replacing it with a Plains double heal (so Arabia will be good at moving through desert quickly, and good at healing up quickly from plains tiles). Thematic and much more balanced.

G