Arab's Piety and Caravans

[AlpsStranger]

America should get overhauled, I think.

Manifest Destiny is a very good name for America's UA, but they need to change the actual ability.

What if America was able to purchase tiles at drastically reduced cost and far beyond normal range?

 

[BluegrassGeek]

I believe Madjinn said that the Shoshone's ability actually provides an additional set of free tiles, meaning that it does not increase the cost of tiles in general (meaning that they expand super-fast). So in a way, it kinda does outpower America.

Not really, because they only get that bonus once per city. They get the advantage in early game, but America still gets the better end of the deal as the game goes into later eras.

 

[BluegrassGeek]

America should get overhauled, I think.

Manifest Destiny is a very good name for America's UA, but they need to change the actual ability.

What if America was able to purchase tiles at drastically reduced cost and far beyond normal range?

It would be ridiculously overpowered.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Not really, because they only get that bonus once per city. They get the advantage in early game, but America still gets the better end of the deal as the game goes into later eras.

Not sure I agree in practice. I'd say Shoshone > America by a pretty solid margin.

 

[SnowKomodo]

I agree. The sight is useful but the tile bonus should have been replaced with a cultural/tourism or ideological buff instead of remaining the same in light of the Shoshone.

Civs overlap that's just the reality of it.

America's tiles and Shoshone's auto-expanse

Austria's buying of city-states and Venice's Merchant of Venice

Zulu's 50% less melee maintenance and Germany's 25% less land maintenance

Denmark's 1 movement point from sea to land and Songhai's amphibious promotion

And so on.

I think it's fine to ask for America to change. I just don't think using Shoshone as a comparison is a valid reason for evidence as to why.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Not really, because they only get that bonus once per city. They get the advantage in early game, but America still gets the better end of the deal as the game goes into later eras.

Yes, but they get 8 additional tiles for Free, America still has to pay for those 8 tiles with both culture or gold, Shoshone don't.

 

[Montezumas Hat]

I don't think America is THAT underpowered. I'd say Shoshone might be better, but not by much. Shoshone has the clear advantage with tiles, but not so much with the rest of their uniques. Shoshone has defensive bonus, head start with Pathfinder chosen ruins, and cheaper/faster cavalry. On the other hand, the US has +1 sight for all land military units, which means quicker exploration, and better range for artillery. Plus, Minutemen, and more importantly, B17s. Improved sight means easier access to bombing cities.

Basically, Shoshone has a head start and means of holding their head start, but America starts to shine militarily with artillery and keeps getting better. I don't think they're the beat civ, but they're certainly not completely overshadowed by Shoshone. If anything, Shoshone is defensive America.

...as far as the actual topic goes, I'm really interested in Arabia. Desert Folklore, early piety, tithe and the faith bonus from trade routes makes Arabia one of the strongest faith civs in the game, even more than Byzantium or the Celts. Playing them may actually make me go offensive with my religion for once.

 

[Ryoga]

Not really, because they only get that bonus once per city. They get the advantage in early game, but America still gets the better end of the deal as the game goes into later eras.

I don't think you quite grasped the implications of the fact that there is no culture increase cost for the tiles they get by default.

Normally the tile cost increases proportionally to the cost of culture needed to get them.

So let's say a tile far away would normally cost 100, to the Shoshone will cost less because it is already close to their initial borders.

In other words the Shoshone indirectly get a discount on every tiles on top on those that they get for free.


Look at the following example

On the right is your typical newly founded capital. Now if you want to buy a tile directly near that initial border you normally pay it 50 gold, that's the price of a "tier 1" tile which is directly adjacent to your initial borders. If you want then to take a tile further away it will cost more, in this example 100 gold.
Since America has a discount then it will pay 50 gold for that tile.

Now look at the left. That's a random initial settlement of the Shoshone. If they now want to buy the same tile that to any other civs would cost 100 gold and to the American 50, they will still pay only 50, because that's considered a tier 1 tile.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I don't think you quite grasped the implications of the fact that there is no culture increase cost for the tiles they get by default.

Normally the tile cost increases proportionally to the cost of culture needed to get them.

So let's say a tile far away would normally cost 100, to the Shoshone will cost less because it is already close to their initial borders.

In other words the Shoshone indirectly get a discount on every tiles on top on those that they get for free.

There is also no culture increase cost for tiles that are purchased with gold.

However.. I agree America's UA doesn't help them expand as well.. what they have is the +1 sight as a Military advantage.

 

[A Rabid Dopsis]

Oh, good, I was worried that this thread about Arabia wouldn't devolve into American Exceptionalism.

 

[PhilBowles]

Arabia's desert start also means there's room for folklore...yeah, the Arabs are looking powerful. They'll be among the first few non-BNW civs I'll play as.

I'm actually thinking of them as the first civ I'll play post-BNW (it was going to be Morocco, but then it occurred to me that I may not see the 'whole' BNW experience, particularly the reduced gold availability, if I play a civ that gives me extra gold, so instead it will be Indonesia).

Germany's always been kind of "meh", but America's been completely surpassed by the Shoshone in almost every way. America needs either a complete UA revamp (maybe something using the new Ideology system?) or at least a new UU/UB (how about a Great Writer replacement called a "Founding Father"?).

I think Germany's the one that's been "overshadowed" - its key UU is a Pikeman, and it plays by unit-spamming. The Zulu now do both better.

The Shoshone don't much intrude into American territory (irony intended) - the +1 sight is the more important part of the American UA, and America is in any case characterised mostly by its UUs (including the very strong B-17), for which there are no Shoshone equivalents.

I'm also surprised they didn't upgrade Netherlands alongside Arabia. Their UA's namesake can now be built by every other civilization, after all. A Happiness boost for each trade route would've made the most sense and wouldn't even have drastically altered the Netherlands' playstyle as much as Arabia's new UA will.

Just thematically the Netherlands should have some kind of trade-based UA, and I too had taken the new National Wonder name as a hint that the Dutch would be changing.

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

Don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but Arabia retains the double Oil bonus. Arabia seems very cool, and flexible as well. Further range for Caravans and religious spread sound good for tall and wide in differing ways, while double oil and the Camel archer both allow conquest, while religion can really be melded in to helping you with any victory condition. I've never bothered to play Arabia before, but now I'm thinking of playing a mostly peaceful piety game with a mid-game Camel Archer conquest.

 

[PhilBowles]

Don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but Arabia retains the double Oil bonus.

Probably because most of the time it's not that huge a deal - you don't need many aircraft to dominate vs. the AI (I succeeded with 6 oil from a single well yesterday), and a lot of the (useful, as opposed to tanks) things that should need oil don't (destroyers, battleships, subs).

I certainly wouldn't go so far as the modder who for some reason created a mod specifically designed, so it says, "to make oil useful", when oil is already the most useful strategic resource in the game after aluminium (and considering how much more game-changing bombers are than even rocket artillery, possibly moreso), but when I've played as Arabia the double oil is mostly excess (which, characterfully, you can of course sell to the highest bidder).

More to the point, double oil is already in the UA, so it's not going to change anything in the way the Arabs play, unlike the religious pressure change.

Arabia seems very cool, and flexible as well. Further range for Caravans and religious spread sound good for tall and wide in differing ways, while double oil and the Camel archer both allow conquest, while religion can really be melded in to helping you with any victory condition. I've never bothered to play Arabia before, but now I'm thinking of playing a mostly peaceful piety game with a mid-game Camel Archer conquest.

Arabia was powerful before and is probably a superpower now, but mostly I just think this is one of the single most characterful UAs in the game, ticking nearly every box for a civ that has a lot of associated traits (trade, religion, oil). The religious element also ties in with Harun as a leader; the old UA didn't really reflect anything about the specific leader choice, since Harun wasn't known particularly for ruling a trading empire, or for commerce.

I'm much more excited for Arabia's new UA than for France's (or any of the minor tweaks in G&K), and I think it's rather a shame so few civs were changed given the potential this suggests for coming up with innovative and characterful changes to existing civs.

 

[BluegrassGeek]

I don't think you quite grasped the implications of the fact that there is no culture increase cost for the tiles they get by default.

Normally the tile cost increases proportionally to the cost of culture needed to get them.

As others pointed out, you also get no culture increase for purchased tiles. The only difference is in gold. While the initial freebie favors the Shoshone, the Americans discount catches up by the time their military power starts to shine (Minutemen). Added with the +1 Sight, America isn't that bad off.

The difference is Early Game (Shoshone) vs. Mid-Late Game (America). If you can take advantage of the early land grab, the Shoshone have an advantage. If you get a poor, or even mediocre site, the free land is wasted, the Americans will catch up and have a distinct military advantage.

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

Probably because most of the time it's not that huge a deal - you don't need many aircraft to dominate vs. the AI (I succeeded with 6 oil from a single well yesterday), and a lot of the (useful, as opposed to tanks) things that should need oil don't (destroyers, battleships, subs).

I certainly wouldn't go so far as the modder who for some reason created a mod specifically designed, so it says, "to make oil useful", when oil is already the most useful strategic resource in the game after aluminium (and considering how much more game-changing bombers are than even rocket artillery, possibly moreso), but when I've played as Arabia the double oil is mostly excess (which, characterfully, you can of course sell to the highest bidder).

More to the point, double oil is already in the UA, so it's not going to change anything in the way the Arabs play, unlike the religious pressure change.



Arabia was powerful before and is probably a superpower now, but mostly I just think this is one of the single most characterful UAs in the game, ticking nearly every box for a civ that has a lot of associated traits (trade, religion, oil). The religious element also ties in with Harun as a leader; the old UA didn't really reflect anything about the specific leader choice, since Harun wasn't known particularly for ruling a trading empire, or for commerce.

I'm much more excited for Arabia's new UA than for France's (or any of the minor tweaks in G&K), and I think it's rather a shame so few civs were changed given the potential this suggests for coming up with innovative and characterful changes to existing civs.

I didn't say that Arabia was weak before BNW, I was just saying that now they look far more appealing to me personally due to their flexibility. I agree as well, this UA looks like one best for representation of any single Civ, and looks relatively balanced, pushing you to focus more on a few aspects important (in this case, religion and trade) while letting you choose how exactly you want to do that. Definitely on my "to play" list now.

 

[pilot00]

I didn't say that Arabia was weak before BNW, I was just saying that now they look far more appealing to me personally due to their flexibility. I agree as well, this UA looks like one best for representation of any single Civ, and looks relatively balanced, pushing you to focus more on a few aspects important (in this case, religion and trade) while letting you choose how exactly you want to do that. Definitely on my "to play" list now.

Week no, situational yes. It depend on available trading partners, if you had that then the world was your oyster on every vic type. You could rush buy everything and still had gold for emergencies. Barring that, an autocratic camel archer war followed by spammed tanks due to high oil reserves was not a bad option at all. And to be honest the AI did favor the last one.

 

[ImperialChaos]

Civs overlap that's just the reality of it.

America's tiles and Shoshone's auto-expanse

Austria's buying of city-states and Venice's Merchant of Venice

Zulu's 50% less melee maintenance and Germany's 25% less land maintenance

Denmark's 1 movement point from sea to land and Songhai's amphibious promotion

And so on.

I think it's fine to ask for America to change. I just don't think using Shoshone as a comparison is a valid reason for evidence as to why.

Of course. Those listed are similar but one doesn't make the other almost obsolete. Except Germany and the Zulu - even that is partial (melee units). The Shoshone's UA makes America's cheap tile buy useless. At least in the beginning.

As others pointed out, you also get no culture increase for purchased tiles. The only difference is in gold. While the initial freebie favors the Shoshone, the Americans discount catches up by the time their military power starts to shine (Minutemen). Added with the +1 Sight, America isn't that bad off.

The difference is Early Game (Shoshone) vs. Mid-Late Game (America). If you can take advantage of the early land grab, the Shoshone have an advantage. If you get a poor, or even mediocre site, the free land is wasted, the Americans will catch up and have a distinct military advantage.

That should vary among games. The Shoshone have the Comanche not too far behind the Minuteman. Also, a part of the Shoshone's UA is that they get a combat bonus on their territory. Comanche (34) + territory bonus versus the Minuteman (24) isn't a military advantage for America . It has the military advantage in the Modern era more than the mid-game with the B-17. Even then Shoshone Musketman (24) vs Minuteman (24) on Shoshone territory is also a substantial Shoshone bonus. It depends on defense or offense.

Also, I don't want to derail the OP's thread. Arabia will probably be one of the first I play. Brazil, Venice, Arabia and France are the first four for me. Arabia's new religious pressures with religious texts = crazy. Islam is going to be the dominant religion in every game with them (unless the Ottomans find it first.)

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

Week no, situational yes. It depend on available trading partners, if you had that then the world was your oyster on every vic type. You could rush buy everything and still had gold for emergencies. Barring that, an autocratic camel archer war followed by spammed tanks due to high oil reserves was not a bad option at all. And to be honest the AI did favor the last one.

At what point did I call their new UA "weak"?

 

[PhilBowles]

Of course. Those listed are similar but one doesn't make the other almost obsolete. Except Germany and the Zulu - even that is partial (melee units). The Shoshone's UA makes America's cheap tile buy useless. At least in the beginning.

No, it doesn't. The Shoshone UA only works if you're playing the Shoshone - and, if you are, you get none of the bonuses of the extra visibility or UUs. America is a more balanced civ game-long, the Shoshone shine early but trade that against later-game strength.

The only circumstance in which the two would really be comparable would be if the Shoshone as a whole were superior to America as a whole. I maintain that this is much more likely to be an issue for Germany vs. the Zulu (with the latter having the edge).

That should vary among games. The Shoshone have the Comanche not too far behind the Minuteman.

The Comanche require horses, Minutemen don't.

Also, a part of the Shoshone's UA is that they get a combat bonus on their territory. Comanche (34) + territory bonus versus the Minuteman (24) isn't a military advantage for America .

You forget, the units that started off as Minutemen keep their promotions, and when the Shoshone have Comanche Riders, those Minutemen are - or will be a single tech later - hillwalking Riflemen with a combat bonus in rough terrain (plus any accumulated promotions).

America's units are in any case intended for aggression - Drill I and free movement in hills is a bonus aimed at capturing fortified positions or travelling through otherwise largely impassable terrain. That isn't comparable with the defensive Comanche Riders, who despite their bonus in their own territory still suffer mounted unit disadvantages when defending.

It has the military advantage in the Modern era more than the mid-game with the B-17. Even then Shoshone Musketman (24) vs Minuteman (24) on Shoshone territory is also a substantial Shoshone bonus.

That depends whether the terrain in question favours the Minutemen - faster movement in hills makes it easier to gain flanking bonuses since the American unit moves faster. Built from a city with a Barracks and Armory you start off a single promotion away from Blitz. Do we know how strong the defensive bonus is for Shoshone? I noticed Ethopia's UA text has been modified to specify the exact combat bonus given by the UA (30%), but the Shoshone's doesn't seem to do that.

Also, I don't want to derail the OP's thread. Arabia will probably be one of the first I play. Brazil, Venice, Arabia and France are the first four for me. Arabia's new religious pressures with religious texts = crazy. Islam is going to be the dominant religion in every game with them (unless the Ottomans find it first.)

My plans: Indonesia, Arabia, Morocco, then possibly Assyria (or, more likely, back to Siam for the first time in a long time, to see how a vanilla civ that hasn't been directly affected by the new mechanics will play with them).

 

[theadder]

That depends whether the terrain in I noticed Ethopia's UA text has been modified to specify the exact combat bonus given by the UA (30%), but the Shoshone's doesn't seem to do that.

It's 20% for Ethiopia and not 30%.