Arafat -- Why string him along?

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
That's from the new york times.
What I can say about that is that if american troops have the courage to stop with their bodies palestinien terror, ill be glad.
But the fact is Israel acknowledged the fact that it should retreat from the territories enough times and suffered from that.
Terror must be stopped AS israel retreats and not after, like arafat wants.
That was the article that Pellaken mirrored and was told he was ignorant.

Now I'll call Thomas Friedman an idiot if he believes for a second that Palestinians wouldn't try and kill Americans equally. Its ironic to me that the world media, and world as a whole, seem to thing that the United States can do SOMETHING to make the violence stop. They are forgetting who initiates the violence everytime because they're too busy supporting the cause. They don't realize that supporting the cause they're supporting the method, which is violence.

Anyway, that was my rant about it... since I know many people here are not U.S. or Israeli, can someone please explain to me what the United States is supposed to do to stop the violence?

There is that nuclear weapons thread floating around too... that would stop it :D
 
I wanna know how is anyone supposed to stop it. They just say - Israel's retaliation doesn't solve the problem therefore it is the problem. Well what DOES stop the violence? How do you convince a man who is willing to sacrifice his life in order to kill Israelis to make peace with Israel? How can you make a dictator stop terrorists when he'll know that they'll then turn against him? It's very easy to say that everything everyone are doing is wrong but do you have anything that will help? Suppose both Israelis and Palestinians will agree they're equally blamed as some of you think. How can that solve the situation? Israel still won't withdraw from anywhere without insuring that there'll be someone to take over and prevent terrorism and will not agree to give the Palestinians anything in return to stoping the violence fearing they'll use it as a method. Palestinians still won't agree to a cease fire unless Israel will promise them the removal of all settlments and even then there's no assurance they'll really crack down on the terrorists.
 
Gotta go along with Greadius on this one. What can the US do? We have made all the appropriate statements. Now we've sent Powell to make peace. Does anyone think that that will be the silver bullet that solves the problem? I'm sure the head of such and sush martyrs platoon is saying, "We'll now, Powell's on the way, I guess that means peace."

It is too bad all these people who want to be martyrs, won't be martyrs to peace. If the situation is so bad that Arafat would be lynched if he called for a cease-fire, or condemned the bombings, what does that say?

Back to the US, I hope that no one thinks that US troops are the answer. There is plenty of animosity towards the US from the Palistinians as it is. The whole ME thinks we unfairly favor the Israelis. Us sending troops is not going to make anyone happy. I'm trying to think of a country that could send troops, but I figure suspicions and precieved bias would get in the way of most of them.

I'm beginning to wonder if this conflict will end the way the Thirty-Years war ended, through mutual exhaustion of the two religious sides. Of couse the region in question was utterly devastated in the process.
 
Originally posted by knowltok2
Back to the US, I hope that no one thinks that US troops are the answer. There is plenty of animosity towards the US from the Palistinians as it is. The whole ME thinks we unfairly favor the Israelis. Us sending troops is not going to make anyone happy. I'm trying to think of a country that could send troops, but I figure suspicions and precieved bias would get in the way of most of them.
Jamiacan rastifarians :D
Or better yet, the French Black Berets, representing secular athiesm through the works of Jean Paul Sarte! They would be hated equally by both sides...

But even with troops... what difference would it make. If Palestinians are dying to end occupation, wouldn't foreign troops be occupiers too? If they go to Israel, what difference would it make since the Israeli 'problem' is overt tanks that would willingly leave without suicide bombings.

And are the troops actually supposed to shoot on the beligerent sides? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of standing in a no-man's land with guns pointed at both sides... not a chance.
Sad situation when both sides are so desperate to kill one another that no rational solution can be applied. The wonders of religion.
 
We are not dying to kill the palestiniens and we are certainly not fighting over religion.
We are just protecting ourselves.
Unless someone gives us a better solution, I think that arresting palestinien terrorists or killing them is the best solution for self protection.
This is not a war we started over religion, as always, in all wars, Israel's only aspiration is to exist safely.
It's exactly the same with the palestiniens now, we have no problems with the Islam religion and we have no problem that an islamic country will reside side by side with us, as long as they do not incourage terror, as long as they take steps against terror.
Please tell me which one of these requests is too harsh?
We told the palestiniens we are willing to get off the territories as long as they stop terror, or at least try as hard as they can to stop terror, and we even demonstrated that a few times while suffering dozens of dead Israelies as result from our one sided retreats and cease fires.
If the palestineins bomb us and take advantage of our retreats, its their problem when we try to stop them by arresting them!
If the palestiniens do not stop the palestiniens, we will stop the palestiniens, and I don't see whats wrong with that.
As much as I want peace, there is a point where I say enough is enough, and ask for my country to protect my back and not leave me to the terrorists.
 
The problem isn't stoping terrorists with troops. Israel has planety of troops to do that. The problem is to make someone from the Palestinian side to crack down on terrorists. If you'll send here foreign troops they'll either have to take the same actions the IDF is taking now (something they can't because their own country has condemned such things) or will attempts to stop terrorists without closures, incursions, targeted killings and so on, something that cannot work because there's no way to then stop terrorists... Not to mention the fact that no country will send it's soldiers here unless it's forced to.
 
What are the reasons that Israel doesn't turn over all of the land and seal the border? I know that there are security concerns regarding invasion routes and all, but might it not be worth the risk? Mainly what I am asking about is in a sense building a wall around Palestine and closing the border to alll inflowing traffic. Why not give them their nation and let them twist in the breeze?

True, if there isn't an economic foundation to the country there could be unrest, but it could hardly be worse than what there is now. Wouldn't that cut down on the terrorism significantly and take away almost all of the Palestinian moral basis? Security wise I think it could be worth the risk. I would figure that the IDF could defend Israel without the occupied territories.

This is a serious question, and I know that there are reasons, I just don't know what they are. Thank you for your answers.
 
Few reasons:
1. We supply them with resources
2. They have missiles with the range of 8-12km
3. The settlements
4. It is a long and expensive process, and its results are not assured at all

In the real world, when a country attacks you, you try and stop it. You do not build a giant 30 feet high and 5 feet wide wall.
We are not in the 1500's.
 
LOL, well hopefully they will leave.
 
The settlers will only leave in a process that includes peace negotiations and not under threats of terror.

Its like saying the american troops should have left when bin-laden told them too when he attacked the twin towers.

That land never belonged to the palestiniens and a palestinien country never existed.
Furthermore, no palestiniens were evicted from their homes to make place for settlements, there were built on empty land.

I don't say we shouldn't evict them, but only if it includes peace and safety, and not under threats of terror. That defeats every purpose.
 
Appears to me the terrorists have already won.
While applauding their cause the world community keeps forgetting to condemn their actions. Justification and legitimization of targeting civilians.

Its ironic how if a U.S. bomb misses and accidentally kills civilians its a war crime, but when a Palestinian purposely kills a civilian with a bomb on his chest he is a freedom fighter. Maybe we're going about this wrong... if we strap people to bombs will we eliminate the backlash of collateral damage?

When its all over, Arafat will have done for suicide bombings what Gandhi did for non-violent resistance. My sympathy to anyone in a country that will have seccession movements in the future.

As much as Israel has benefited from U.S. aid, in this circumstance I think the lack of outrage at Palestinian terrorists compared to Israeli action is as much a backlash to U.S. policy as it is to Israel. That is why its difficult for anyone outside the Arab community to whine about Israel without dragging the U.S. into it.
 
Lets get some mis-statements I see by some of you here straight once and for all (I hope).
---------------------------------

Misstatement: Israel is not prepared to make meaningful compromises to achieve peace with the Palestinians.

Response:
Israel is fully committed to pursuing negotiated agreements with her Arab neighbors so that it may finally live in peace and security. Peace has proven difficult only for want of peace partners willing to recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel was able to reach historic peace agreements with Egypt (1979) and Jordan (1994) in which both sides made serious compromises for the sake of normalized relations.
Public opinion polls in Israel since the start of the Oslo process in 1993 consistently show that the vast majority of Israelis are supportive of negotiations with the Palestinians and support making extremely difficult compromises on territory, settlements, Jerusalem and other contentious matters. Recognizing this great support for peace, every candidate for Prime Minister of Israel since 1993 has pledged to continue negotiations ­­ albeit with different approaches. However, Israelis cannot be expected to support concessions that will compromise Israel's basic security, nor can they be expected to submit to violence and terrorism wielded as a tool to exact further concessions.

In contrast, the Palestinians have demonstrated that they are not willing or able to make the serious decisions necessary for peace. At Camp David, Chairman Arafat and his Palestinian negotiating team rebuffed significant Israeli concessions on major issues, and clinging to maximalist positions on these issues, did not offer counter proposals to Israel to further the negotiations. Since September, Palestinians have rejected negotiations and used violence and terrorism.

--------------------------

Misstatement: The Palestinians were justified in rejecting the Israeli proposals at Camp David.

Response:
At the Camp David Summit in July 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians a final status agreement with concessions that went far beyond what the U.S., Palestinians, and even most Israelis ever expected. Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasir Arafat failed to demonstrate any flexibility or willingness to compromise and clung to maximalist positions on the contentious issues under negotiation. After rejecting the Israeli offer ­­ which included extensive concessions on sharing Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount, establishing an independent Palestinian state in 100 percent of the Gaza Strip and as much as 95 percent of the West Bank, uprooting isolated settlements ­­ the Palestinian negotiating team did not offer a counter proposal or use the Israeli concessions as the basis for further negotiations. Instead they walked away from negotiations.
After the Summit, President Clinton openly acknowledged Israel's tremendous offer and stated that Prime Minister Barak "showed particular courage and vision and an understanding of the historical importance of the moment." On his return to Israel, Prime Minister Barak declared: "Today I return from Camp David, and can look into the millions of eyes and say with regret: We have not yet succeeded. We did not succeed because we did not find a partner prepared to make decisions on all issues. We did not succeed because our Palestinian neighbors have not yet internalized the fact that in order to achieve peace, each side has to give up some of their dreams; to give, not only to demand."

A year after Camp David, Palestinians publicly declared that the failure of Camp David was due to lack of preparation by the Americans, personality differences between Barak and Arafat, and by Barak's "take-it-or-leave-it" negotiating posture. Nevertheless, Camp David demonstrated that Arafat and the Palestinian leadership had unrealistic expectations that they could force Israel to concede to their maximalist demands without making important compromises of their own. With the Palestinian behavior at Camp David and their turn to violence, the Israeli populace has understandably begun to doubt the Palestinian commitment to peace. While there were additional negotiating sessions in October and December, they were conducted through unceasing Palestinian violence, making further Israeli concessions impossible.

------------------------------

Misstatement: Israeli settlements are a provocation, and their existence is the ongoing cause of Palestinian violence.

Response:
Palestinians first claimed the current violence was provoked by Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, and then claimed that it was provoked by Israeli settlement activity, declaring that if only settlement activity ended, the violence could cease. As part of the coalition agreement, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has declared that no new settlements will be built. Current construction in settlements is for purposes of natural growth only. Further determinations on settlement activity can only be made through negotiations on a final status agreement, and will not be determined by ongoing Palestinian violence.
Indeed, at Camp David the Palestinians were offered the uprooting of settlements from the entire Gaza Strip and much of the West Bank. At the Summit, then-Prime Minister Barak offered to redeploy and uproot settlements from up to 95 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip. Settlements in the remaining 5 percent of the West Bank ­­ where the majority of the settler population lives ­­ would be annexed to Israel. The Palestinians refused and turned to violence. Since the start of Palestinian violence in September, the Palestinian Authority has authorized the daily targeting of Israeli settlers by snipers and terrorists, leading to many deaths and injuries.


--------------------------------

Misstatement: Settlements are a violation of international law.

Response:
Settlements, Jewish communities that were established in the West Bank and Gaza Strip after the territories were acquired in the 1967 War, do not violate international law.
Jews have lived in the West Bank and Gaza Strip throughout recorded history, until 1948, when they were forced to flee the invading Arab armies. Indeed, several of the current settlement communities existed prior to 1948, when they where overrun by invading Arab armies. Kfar Etzion and other villages in the Jerusalem-Bethlehem corridor, for example, fell to Arab forces in May 1948 and those captured were massacred. Sons and daughters of those who lived there until 1948 were the first to return after the 1967 war.

Israel's administration of the territory in 1967 replaced Jordan's control of the West Bank and Egypt's of the Gaza Strip. Egypt and Jordan gained control of these areas during the 1948 War with the newly established Israel, which according to the 1947 UN Partition Plan, were to be part of the independent Arab state to be established alongside an independent Jewish state. Neither Jordan nor Egypt had legal sovereignty over these areas. Israel maintains that these areas can thus not be considered "occupied territories" under international law, since Israel did not "occupy" them from another sovereign nation, but are "disputed territories" over which there are competing claims, and whose future must be determined through negotiations. Since 1967, Israeli governments have maintained a willingness to withdraw from areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in a peace agreement with the Arabs.

Critics of Israel frequently cite Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits the forcible transfer of segments of a population of a state to the territory of another state which it has occupied through the use of armed force, as proof of the illegality of settlements. However, Israel maintains that the Geneva Convention, drafted after World War II, was intended to protect local populations from displacement, such as the forced population transfers experienced before and during the war in Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary. The situation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip is clearly different. Israel has not forcibly transferred Israelis to these areas. Rather, Israeli settlers voluntarily reside in areas where Jews have historically dwelled.

------------------------

Misstatement: Settlements violate Israeli-Palestinian Agreements.

Response:
None of the signed agreements between Israel and the Palestinians restrict the building or expansion of settlements. Indeed, the issue of settlements is specifically noted as an issue that will only be discussed during final status negotiations, the final stage of the peace process. The only prohibition in these agreements is that neither side take steps to change the status of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, such as unilateral declarations of statehood or annexation, prior to final status negotiations. The Israeli Government has voluntarily frozen the building of new settlements, but recognizes the needs of existing settlements to meet the changing needs of their residents, such as the expansion of existing homes to accommodate growing families.
Since 1967, Israeli governments have maintained a willingness to withdraw from areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in a peace agreement with the Arabs. In such a case, it was commonly expected that at least some of the settlements would have to be uprooted, just as the Israeli town of Yamit was dismantled following Israel's peace agreement with Egypt. At Camp David in July 2000, Ehud Barak reportedly offered to uproot all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and the isolated settlements on up to 95 percent of the territory of the West Bank, as part of a final status agreement. The Palestinians rejected this offer.

--------------------------------

Misstatement: Palestinians were systematically expelled from their land by Israel in 1948.

Response:
As many as 700,000 Palestinians abandoned their homes in the newly created State of Israel when five Arab armies invaded the newly-declared state on May 15, 1948. During the chaotic and volatile war, many of the Palestinians who left did so voluntarily to avoid the ongoing war or at the urging of Arab leaders who promised that all who left would return after a quick Arab victory over the new Jewish state. Some recent historical studies have revealed that in some regrettable cases, Palestinians were forced to flee by individuals or groups fighting for Israel. There was no official, deliberate or systemic Israeli policy of expelling Palestinians. Palestinians that stayed were made full citizens of the new State of Israel. During the June 1967 War, an estimated 250,000 Palestinians fled from the West Bank and Gaza Strip of their own volition.

----------------------------------------

Misstatement: Israel treats Arabs as second-class citizens

Response:
Israel makes no distinction between its Arab and Jewish citizens. Israeli Arab citizens enjoy the same rights as their Jewish neighbors. They are also free to practice their religion without discrimination, in accordance with Israel's commitment to democracy and freedom. There are a number of Israeli Arab parties represented in the Israeli Knesset (parliament), and Arab members of Knesset are extremely vocal in promoting their issues and opinions. Recently, disappointed by the scarcity of Arab ministers in high governmental positions, the Israeli courts instituted a policy of affirmative action for Arabs in the higher echelons of the government.
As in every country, much more needs to be done to promote greater educational and employment opportunities for minorities, particularly for Israeli Arabs. The Israeli government has committed to investing in the necessary infrastructure and assistance for these communities.

It is important to note that Palestinian Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are not citizens of Israel. After gaining territory in the 1967 War, Israel found itself with a million Palestinian Arabs under its administration. Israel hoped its authority over the Palestinian in these areas would be short-lived and would be exchanged for peace with its Arab neighbors. As a result, Israel did not annex or incorporate the West Bank and Gaza Strip into Israel proper, and thus did not apply the same laws that govern Israeli civilian life. Today, 99 percent of the Palestinian population lives under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority.

---------------------------

Misstatement: Jews are interlopers in the Middle East. The European Jews that immigrated to Palestine, beginning in the late 19th century, had no connection with the land which was populated solely by indigenous Palestinians.

Response:
The Land of Israel ­­ the historical birthplace of the Jewish people, the land promised to Abraham, the site of the holy Temple and David's Kingdom ­­ has been the cornerstone of Jewish religious life since the Jewish exile from the land two thousand years ago, and is embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture. A small number of Jews lived continuously in the Land of Israel after their exile in the year 70, through Byzantine, Muslim and Crusader rule. At the time of the Ottoman conquest in 1517, Jews lived in Jerusalem, Nablus, Hebron, Safad and in Galilean villages. Hundreds of hasidic Jews immigrated in 1700 from Eastern Europe, along with Jews fleeing pogroms in the Ukraine. Many pious Jews left Eastern Europe in the late 18th and early 19th century in order to pray and die in the four sacred cities of the Holy Land: Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias and Hebron. There had been a continuous presence of Jewish residents of Jerusalem from King David's time (except for periods when Jews were barred from living in the city), and by 1844, Jews were the largest single religious community in Jerusalem. By 1856, the Jewish population in Palestine was over 17,000. Organized Jewish immigration began in 1880 with the emergence of the modern Zionist movement.
The number of Palestinian Arabs living in the area when Jews began arriving en masse in the late 19th century remains the subject of dispute among historians. The early Zionist pioneers saw the Arab population as small, apolitical, and without a nationalist element and they therefore believed that there would not be friction between the two communities. They also thought that development of the country would benefit both peoples and they would thus secure Arab support and cooperation. Indeed, many Arabs migrated to Palestine in the wake of economic growth stimulated by Jewish immigration, attracted by new employment opportunities, higher wages and better living conditions.
 
Iceblaze do you work for the government or something. You seem so confident in everything you say as if you decided that things should be that way.


Anyway i don't get Palestinians are called terrorists. They are resisting foreign invasion. The Israelis came and won a few wars and pushing the Palestinians out.

It still doesn't make sense how you can kick somebody out of their home and expect them to live happily? i can't go up to my neighbor and tell him to go and live in the garden while i live in the house. He won't just go into the garden and live there. He'll fight back.

And anyway Abrahm was born Ur and came to Israel, killed the locals and settled there. Much like the situation today.
 
Let me ignore your stupid fabricated comments and just say this:

PROVE to me that ANY of my points is false.

Yes, I am confident that everything I written in that post is 100% true, and I will be interested if you can show me a reliable and objective source that disproves those claims.


Anyway i don't get Palestinians are called terrorists. They are resisting foreign invasion.


Because they take advantage of the retreat of Israeli troops to hurt as much civilians as they can, including old people, babies and women. Give me another definition for that.
 
Originally posted by God
Iceblaze do you work for the government or something. You seem so confident in everything you say as if you decided that things should be that way.


Anyway i don't get Palestinians are called terrorists. They are resisting foreign invasion. The Israelis came and won a few wars and pushing the Palestinians out.

It still doesn't make sense how you can kick somebody out of their home and expect them to live happily? i can't go up to my neighbor and tell him to go and live in the garden while i live in the house. He won't just go into the garden and live there. He'll fight back.

And anyway Abrahm was born Ur and came to Israel, killed the locals and settled there. Much like the situation today.

Palestinians who are called terrorists aren' freedo fighters. Freedom fighters fight in order to get freedom, but Israel already agreed to give them a country of their own. What they're trying to do is to force Israel to give them even more land for their country and to kill more jews, something foundmentalist orgenizations consider a mission from Alla.
Israel never kicked the Palestinians from their homes. Those Palestinians who didn't leave the country during the war got a full citizenship. The sotuation you're talking about with you and your neighbor is what the Palestinians tried to do to us in 1948 - they tried to push us into the sea. That's also what they and the arab countries tried to do in 1967 and 1973 and later on in their terrorists acts. As soon as they agreed to live side by side with Israel the peace process started. Israel promised them land and support and all they had to do was NOT to kill Israelis. The terrorists DO kill Israelis and therefore stopping the peace process and actually preventing their people from getting a country. If the terrorists were fighting for their people they wouldn't execute Palestinians who disagreed with them and they wouldn't put bombs next to their own water pipes so it would look as if the IDF has blown them. Just today such a bomb was nutralized next to the main water pipe of bethlehem.
By the way Abraham didn't kill anyone and he didn't take over the country. And even if he tried, do you really think a single man can kill the residents of an entire country?

knowltok2
If Israel will follow your plan it would mean totaly surrendering to the Palestinians. We tried that in Lebanon and look what heppened - daily bombings of Israeli towns, civilian planes can't fly there becaue of the AAAs, Israeli soldiers that guard the border are under fire daily, etc. Now imagine the same thing not in a low density area like that but in the middle of Jerusalem and very close the the heavily populated coastline.
Also you expect Israelis to support kicking away hundreds of thousands of jews from their homes in response to being terrorized? We would almost be asking to be attacked again. The moral base of the Palestinian terrorists doesn't matter. We also though the oslo agreements would take the moral base for them. They'll simply find some other reason to kill us like the fact we're reacher or the fact there are arab villages in other areas that they want or something like that.

Pellaken
How would you like it if someone came to your town and started killing people untill everyone would leave their homes? Cause that's what you said there.
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
The settlers will only leave in a process that includes peace negotiations and not under threats of terror.

...

That land never belonged to the palestiniens and a palestinien country never existed.
Furthermore, no palestiniens were evicted from their homes to make place for settlements, there were built on empty land.

I don't say we shouldn't evict them, but only if it includes peace and safety, and not under threats of terror. That defeats every purpose.

let me respond to this in parts:
the settlers will leave you say? I'd like to put that to the test actually. we will see, when of if peace ever comes, if they really will leave.

that land enver belonged to the palestiniens... well, techinically, yes, it never did. but it did once belong to muslim powers, and did got a long time. perhaps israel/palistine should be repatraited into the ottoman empire? they have a claim to the land because they live there. otherwise, by your definition, we would have never had a way in kosovo, as it never belonged to albania.

then you claim that the settlements were built on empty land. well if I kick you out of your house, leave, and my bestest friend comes and says "hey, look at this empty house, its mine now"...

terror will only be stopped once peace is achived. not before. israel needs to learn to accept that. one of the first things you learn as a kid {or SHOULD have leared} is that you cant have everything you want
 
here. a map.

the blue is what was given to israel in 1948 by the UN
the dark cyan {and light cyan} is what was given to palistine in 1948 by the UN
the light cyan is what palistine is asking for today

in 1948 the arabs thought israel was asking for too much, and invaded. israel then took over all of what was the british coloney of palistine, except gaza, which went to egypt, and the west bank, which went to jordan. in 1967, in the 6 day war, israel occupied these lands as well as the golan heights.

the 1948 UN definition of Jerusalem, which was intended to be an international city, is colored in red, with the westbank line drawn in.

this fron centennia www.historicalatlas.com
 

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Originally posted by Pellaken


1. let me respond to this in parts:
the settlers will leave you say? I'd like to put that to the test actually. we will see, when of if peace ever comes, if they really will leave.

2. that land enver belonged to the palestiniens... well, techinically, yes, it never did. but it did once belong to muslim powers, and did got a long time. perhaps israel/palistine should be repatraited into the ottoman empire? they have a claim to the land because they live there. otherwise, by your definition, we would have never had a way in kosovo, as it never belonged to albania.

3. then you claim that the settlements were built on empty land. well if I kick you out of your house, leave, and my bestest friend comes and says "hey, look at this empty house, its mine now"...

4. terror will only be stopped once peace is achived. not before. israel needs to learn to accept that. one of the first things you learn as a kid {or SHOULD have leared} is that you cant have everything you want

1. Let's put it to a test really. Whats the point of this comment?
2. It belonged to the jews... than to the babylonians, to the romans and to the ottoman empire, and then to the british empire. Whats your point? If you want to trace to the past it should belong to the apes. The point is that it never belonged to the palestiniens, and we never kicked the palestineins out of their homes. You didnt read my long post. A lot of arabs came to Israel after Israel started developing it. When the earliest jews settled in the 1700's and 1800's, there was barely anyone there. And thats a fact. Dont bring kosovo into this because that is a differnt topic. And may I ask you WHAT governments asked the palestiniens to live their homes to make way to their armies? NOT ISRAEL.
3. No settlers ever evicted palestiniens out of their homes. The Israeli government never had a policy of kicking arabs out of their homes. It was empty land.
4.Okay. That point is useless and untrue. First comes a cease fire, and then peace. On the same basis of your point we can say that we will always bomb palestinien citizens as much as we can unless they accept our terms for peace. But the fact is, this is the process for peace:
A: Negotiations
B: Two sided cease fire
C: Negotiations
D: Peace

Peace doesn't come under fire, peace comes under cease fires.
And its true, you cant have everything you want, but according to the past, you should tell that to the palestiniens who rejected peace offers and cease fires.
 
1. Let's put it to a test really. Whats the point of this comment?

>>>that I dont beinve, IMHO, that they will leave.

2. It belonged to the jews... than to the babylonians, to the romans and to the ottoman empire, and then to the british empire. Whats your point? If you want to trace to the past it should belong to the apes. The point is that it never belonged to the palestiniens, and we never kicked the palestineins out of their homes. You didnt read my long post. A lot of arabs came to Israel after Israel started developing it. When the earliest jews settled in the 1700's and 1800's, there was barely anyone there. And thats a fact.

>>>Perhaps, but that is because the holy land is just that. a holy land. not only to jews, but to christains and muslims as well. the land "belongs" to no one. where the borders of the naitons are is the modern dillema

Dont bring kosovo into this because that is a differnt topic. And may I ask you WHAT governments asked the palestiniens to live their homes to make way to their armies? NOT ISRAEL.

>>>perhaps. I dont know enough, what I've heard isent un-biased enough.

3. No settlers ever evicted palestiniens out of their homes. The Israeli government never had a policy of kicking arabs out of their homes. It was empty land.

>>>empty land perhaps, but in the middle of other lands. there's a feild in back of my house. I live on a 1km~square area. there are 4 roads making up each boundary. no one lives in the middle, its farmers fields. if someone, who has historical claim, comes, and 1,000 of them settle between the 4 roads, and form a settlement, then I ask you, is that right?

4.Okay. That point is useless and untrue. First comes a cease fire, and then peace. On the same basis of your point we can say that we will always bomb palestinien citizens as much as we can unless they accept our terms for peace. But the fact is, this is the process for peace:
A: Negotiations
B: Two sided cease fire
C: Negotiations
D: Peace

>>>ooohhhhhhh! so CLOSE
the process is:
begin negotiations in earnest
ceace fire
contine the negotiations
peace


negotiaotns cannot begin after cease fire... they cannot, however, end before cease fire eathier. that will come during, not before or after. you have a grasp on that already though.



and I want to make clear, for IceBlaZe, G-Man, and Eli. I dont leave in Israel. you must face this as a fact of live. I will never know or understand the situation like you. my comments are not directed to insult you, but to make you think. and that despite not being 'in the loop' that sometimes, an outside perspective can breath fresh air into an old debate. this thread has been a good one for debate, and I hope it continues to be so.
 
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