DanielTorrence
Warlord
Thanks for that information, never tried it out, but it seems worthwhile on archipelago maps, even if it requires quite a few naval units...
Archipelago tips
- Thread starter Shawnees
- Start date
Thanks for that information, never tried it out, but it seems worthwhile on archipelago maps, even if it requires quite a few naval units...
If use Privateers for this, than its great way how to starve your next enemy cities.. and also it give you few golds/turn (have seen 9 max till now)
This can pay back cost of that ship in some time...Celebithil
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2004
- Messages
- 219
Just to clarify: My remarks, now and before, are mostly valid for the "small islands" setting. Depending on the exact archipelago map script you may or may not have enough land to have basically a land-based economy with lots of water tiles, or are forced to mostly use coast tiles.
Of course coast tiles are really bad, no matter what, so if you can use land, how you can use the little land you have will be most important. But in small islands, most of your cities use mostly coast tiles and any UB that improves those coast tiles becomes good. So I'd say that, yes, the Portuguese UB is one of the worst UBs in the game (a base building you don't typically want to build, which now also changes a mediocre/bad tile into a mediocre tile, but you still usually don't want to work coasts even with a Feitora), but if most tiles you work are coast anyway, then it's better than a lot of other UBs. The Dutch UB still comes rather late in the game, but I find small islands maps play slower than other maps (slower expansion, less early wars), so that is less of a problem on these maps, and because you work lots of coast tiles anyway, it increases output significantly on a production-starved map (and have you ever had a golden age on a Dike-filled small-islands map).
Also, it should be noted that with small islands you can usually get trade routes with lots of far away people as those coastal areas often interconnect. Often you can trade with more people pre-Astro as on a continents map. So the international trade benefit of Astronomy is not as big as it might seem. Typically you do have intercontinental trade routes within your empire, so it is only the "foreign" bonus that you miss. Thus you have to work only roughly 1.5 (if there are no big foreign cities) coast tile per new international trade route to make Colossus come out on top. I generally lose commerce when researching Astronomy.
Of course coast tiles are really bad, no matter what, so if you can use land, how you can use the little land you have will be most important. But in small islands, most of your cities use mostly coast tiles and any UB that improves those coast tiles becomes good. So I'd say that, yes, the Portuguese UB is one of the worst UBs in the game (a base building you don't typically want to build, which now also changes a mediocre/bad tile into a mediocre tile, but you still usually don't want to work coasts even with a Feitora), but if most tiles you work are coast anyway, then it's better than a lot of other UBs. The Dutch UB still comes rather late in the game, but I find small islands maps play slower than other maps (slower expansion, less early wars), so that is less of a problem on these maps, and because you work lots of coast tiles anyway, it increases output significantly on a production-starved map (and have you ever had a golden age on a Dike-filled small-islands map).
Also, it should be noted that with small islands you can usually get trade routes with lots of far away people as those coastal areas often interconnect. Often you can trade with more people pre-Astro as on a continents map. So the international trade benefit of Astronomy is not as big as it might seem. Typically you do have intercontinental trade routes within your empire, so it is only the "foreign" bonus that you miss. Thus you have to work only roughly 1.5 (if there are no big foreign cities) coast tile per new international trade route to make Colossus come out on top. I generally lose commerce when researching Astronomy.
I've tried to play one today, but gave up
I found it just too boring, it's pretty much a fact that FIN is the best trait with lots of sea tiles, and that alone makes for an unbalanced game.
I more or less agree, which is why I almost always play pangaea
Civ4, like most of the other Civ games actually, just doesn't simulate seafaring and coastal economies properly. In reality, commerce and travel over water has been enormously important through history and it's hardly a coincidence that a great majority of humans live in coastal regions. It's only in modern times that land transport has become competitive with sea transport. In Civ, travel by land is literally faster (with roads) through most time periods and the incentive to settle coasts is fairly small. Given how unrealistic it is I don't feel bad about playing maps that ignore or eliminate the sea entirely.
Apart from this, water maps have a greater problem with game balance, because of the dominance of financial civs and the ridiculous power of the Great Lighthouse. It gets a bit old after a while that regardless of what strategy you intend to play or what start you get, you always want to build TGL.
goldys_lackey
Hitler
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2010
- Messages
- 252
Just some screenshots from my current game... (Emperor, Huge, Marathon)
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
How did you get to pop 28 in Amsterdam?
Looking at the tiles. Starting at the top, this is the +/- of food from each tile in terms of citizens consuming 2 food each.
+0 +0 +4 = +4
-2 -1 +0 +0 +0 = -3
+4 +1 +2 (Free) +0 +4 = +11
+0 +0 +0 +0 +0 = +0
+0 +3 +0 = +3
Total: +4 -3 +11 +0 +3 = +15.
+20*2 = 40 food. So that's 55 food total.
+1 more food from the grocer, and that's 56. Hmm, we're missing 1 food and I don't see a settled great merchant. I wonder if he got a random event which gave his grocer (or another building) +1 extra food.
Good question.
That +1 food is from Supermarket (cow/pig/deer +2 heath) Haven't seen Grocers giving food
But about GLH - if you want to get it, have to go for it very very fast. On marathon speed (sorry, but I cant get on slower speed - game ends too fast) its usually done before 1500BC. And for Colosus "window" is even more smaller (because MC is enough expansive tech and can't get it really fast)..
Haven't seen Grocers giving food But about GLH - if you want to get it, have to go for it very very fast. On marathon speed (sorry, but I cant get on slower speed - game ends too fast) its usually done before 1500BC. And for Colosus "window" is even more smaller (because MC is enough expansive tech and can't get it really fast)..
^^ it's a bit re-balanced by the AI going for GLH fast too
On some tries i lost it at turn ~55 or around that date, i guess that is cos they all go sailing and regular lighthouses.
That's the one saving grace of water maps - the AI's actually know how to play them, unlike what would happen in previous Civ games. They also love to go for Optics and circumnavigate early.
One thing I did in some archipelago games was to hand-pick the AI's to be financial civs with water-oriented leaders and UU's or UB's. E.g. the Netherlands, Carthage, England, Vikings, Portugal. That made the game more interesting (and challenging) and ensured everyone was competitive. Portugal is particularly crazy due to the early ocean transport UU combined with Joao, Master of REX... they expand all over the map quite fast.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
I don't think so. As Mylene says, they tend to build lighthouses, which thereby opens up the GLH. That's all. As for Optics, the AI doesn't beeline. It never looks forward more than one tech at a time and never goes deep into the tree.
Not quite true. The AI will plan up to 3 techs deep. Unfortunately, the "planning" is very generic (it doesn't react that much to current-game factors), and randomized enough that it might as well just be a weighted dice roll. Also, I think every time it completes a tech it reconsiders it's old plan (so it might start going to beeline Optics, get Compass, then change it's mind due to a new die roll and decide it'd rather have Civil Service instead).
Darius (Fin+Org) is an excellent choice for Archipelago maps (although he's a contender anywhere.) Obviously Financial is an extremely powerful trait on arch maps, but Organized is arguably just as good because of 50% reduced maintenance and cheap lighthouses and courthouses; your cities will be far-flung and hammer-starved and you'll want to be building LH and CH in pretty much every city anyway; Organized is the best way to do this. Needless to say Darius's economy will be very, very strong.
Pacal II (Exp+Fin) is another good choice; Expansive is another good trait for water maps (cheap harbors and granaries? Yes please!) and ballcourts are great because you'll probably need every you can get until you have Astronomy.
With Joao it's important to not crash your economy because colonies that you settle with Carracks across the ocean won't benefit from domestic resources or send them back until you have astronomy. On archipelago maps Joao responds well to being played aggressively; if you can drop pillagers in an overseas opponent's territory you can utterly cripple them without having to take cities and it will be extremely difficult for them to mount an effective response. Carracks are also great for getting those Imperialistic GG points, as long as your opponent doesn't have Optics yet, since AI opponents often build huge stacks of galleys and triremes even in isolation. Don't forget that you can embark units with Medic promotions on Carracks too; this lets them heal quickly without having to forego combat promotions. By the time you get to Chemistry you'll be able to promote them into some seriously scary frigates and (if the game lasts long enough) into Blitz destroyers - instant death to any wooden navy.
Pacal II (Exp+Fin) is another good choice; Expansive is another good trait for water maps (cheap harbors and granaries? Yes please!) and ballcourts are great because you'll probably need every
you can get until you have Astronomy.With Joao it's important to not crash your economy because colonies that you settle with Carracks across the ocean won't benefit from domestic resources or send them back until you have astronomy. On archipelago maps Joao responds well to being played aggressively; if you can drop pillagers in an overseas opponent's territory you can utterly cripple them without having to take cities and it will be extremely difficult for them to mount an effective response. Carracks are also great for getting those Imperialistic GG points, as long as your opponent doesn't have Optics yet, since AI opponents often build huge stacks of galleys and triremes even in isolation. Don't forget that you can embark units with Medic promotions on Carracks too; this lets them heal quickly without having to forego combat promotions. By the time you get to Chemistry you'll be able to promote them into some seriously scary frigates and (if the game lasts long enough) into Blitz destroyers - instant death to any wooden navy.
Darn, late to the party, all the classic statements have already been said. So just some dribs and drabs...
* Low Sea Level archipelago is definitely worth trying once. I've come to like it so much it's about the only Archipelago I play.
* Archipelago is about half a level easier than non-archipelago even without TGL; while you may have *difficulty* coordinating your landmasses, the AIs lose any semblance of an idea of what they're doing.
* Creative is a nice trait since often the seafood to power an otherwise-good city site is in the second ring, and bootstrapping with 0 base culture can be agonizing.
* Org is nice not just for cheap CHs but also for *skipped* or delayed CHs, here again to save the desperately lacking hammers. Also: lighthouses!
* Exp is also nice for beating the hammer starvation - you're always going to need those granaries and some early workers.
* Speaking of workers, don't let your normal-game habits get the better of you or you'll have lots of workers sitting around idle most of the game!
* Frigates really shine - the only reason why this 4-move, hard-to-attack trebuchet-level bombardment tool is not typically praised more for, uh, bombarding it's not too widely usable. In Archipelago, it is widely usable.
As for astronomy, it really depends on the map and the map type! Archi Low is the extremely example; you could say it is *the* "Colossus and then delay Astronomy" map type since you'll probably have trade connections to everyone in any case.
* Low Sea Level archipelago is definitely worth trying once. I've come to like it so much it's about the only Archipelago I play.
* Archipelago is about half a level easier than non-archipelago even without TGL; while you may have *difficulty* coordinating your landmasses, the AIs lose any semblance of an idea of what they're doing.
* Creative is a nice trait since often the seafood to power an otherwise-good city site is in the second ring, and bootstrapping with 0 base culture can be agonizing.
* Org is nice not just for cheap CHs but also for *skipped* or delayed CHs, here again to save the desperately lacking hammers. Also: lighthouses!
* Exp is also nice for beating the hammer starvation - you're always going to need those granaries and some early workers.
* Speaking of workers, don't let your normal-game habits get the better of you or you'll have lots of workers sitting around idle most of the game!
* Frigates really shine - the only reason why this 4-move, hard-to-attack trebuchet-level bombardment tool is not typically praised more for, uh, bombarding it's not too widely usable. In Archipelago, it is widely usable.
As for astronomy, it really depends on the map and the map type! Archi Low is the extremely example; you could say it is *the* "Colossus and then delay Astronomy" map type since you'll probably have trade connections to everyone in any case.
TMIT brought up a point in another thread. The Dutch UU is crazy good on this map. When you get to Astronomy before the AI has Chemistry you own the waters. If you go to war at this time the AI has no answer to you. Blockade, sink their ships, whatever you like. Dutch are quite good for Archipelago, much better than Portugal. Better UU, better UB. If there is anywhere the Dutch UB is good, it's Archipelago.
Also, play with Privateers (or Dutch UU if you hate somebody) if you get a tech lead. It's a fun way to finance your research by blockading. On Archipelago trade routes are more valuable, so blockading becomes very profitable. See the Strategy Article on Privateers.
Also, play with Privateers (or Dutch UU if you hate somebody) if you get a tech lead. It's a fun way to finance your research by blockading. On Archipelago trade routes are more valuable, so blockading becomes very profitable. See the Strategy Article on Privateers.
