Archos: Spiders seem weak

[Thunder_Gr]

About Water spiders?
I cannot seem to find a spider with water walking.
While waiting that a fix could, hopefully, be found for the CtD I have already post, I started an Archos game.
I play a big and small map, and I started on the small continent, alone, and I need to pass my spiders across the water. I manage to get a giant spider to level 4 and I get the option to choose one of four species.
One of them has no description text, but the others mention nothing about water, so, I choose that one.
It appears that, it gets amphibious, but no water walking...I have to assume it will be available next levels...However, I can only fight barbarians(HN helps a lot, since I am at peace-Yeah! This is great!-with the Savages, but she didn't make it...Now the barbarians are popping out archers, and my baby spiders are stuck.

I would prefer for the water spiders to start with water walking instead of amphibious, and get amphibious as a later promotion.

 

[Breez]

Argyroneta
Argyroneta have a number of adaptations for an aquatic life-style. Their abdomen and legs are densely covered in short hairs that trap air when the spider is submerged. Many coastal villages have been razed as these beasts emerge from the water to feed.
Basic: Amphibious, Double Move Marsh/Wetland.
Greater: Water Walking, +50% Vs Naval Units

Yeah the 1st promo (basic) gives Amphibious which opens up access to the Greater promo bolded above.

 

[Vehem]

I would prefer for the water spiders to start with water walking instead of amphibious, and get amphibious as a later promotion.

I'm sure you would

Water Walking is by far the greater of the two upgrades however (given that it doubles as a "hide from enemy stacks nearby" promotion - just hop on the water tile and be safe). It also allows you to harass other landmasses without need for boats and allows for pretty much the only invisible-naval unit (visible only to ships carrying recon...)

 

[Breez]

So I started a single player game as a Non-Archos civ and captured a spider.

I did not realize ALL spiders gained access to all the specific lines. I guess I thought they would be Archos only. I don't mind either way but is it intentional?

 

[Iceciro]

Dunno, I'd say probabaly intentional since the civ-specific lock is easy, I think. (Haven't tried to lock away promotions for a while.)

I think these spiders are giving the Archos a massive hand up, especially when combined with their pretty-tough, poison-dripping base units they also like to spew at you.

 

[zup]

Amphibious as a later promotion? Doesn't water walking give everything amphibious does, and more?

 

[WarKirby]

Since Marshes get a natural defence bonus now, I think Argyroneta spiders should get an attack bonus in such terrain, which at least nullifies that. To indicate that they aren't bogged down by the mud and water like most other units.

 

[stupidnewbie]

Would it be possible to add some basic tech requirements for the advanced promotions? I'm all for powerful spiders, but being surrounded by 8/7 barbarian spiders with +200% in bonuses before I can even get hunters seems slightly... absurd.

ps: hi

 

[WarKirby]

I'm guessing the AI knows how to use them, then?

I've always supported tech requirements personally. If spiders are being too powerful early on, then I'd much prefer locking away their power until some tech along the recon line, rather than weakening them on the whole. I'm a big fan of potential.

 

[Iceciro]

Yeah, I'm going to link the Spider promotions to the Recon line (that the Archos should be going up anyways...) so that they can't show up ridiculously early from either barbs or Archos.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Amphibious as a later promotion? Doesn't water walking give everything amphibious does, and more?

You are propably right. What I really meant, however, was to get the ability to cross water. As far as I recall, HN units need an HN ship to board on(haven't actually checked that in FF, but in FfH it is this way) and the only HN ship I know of is the Privateer.
Now, if you tell me the Archos are required to research the techs needed to get the spiders overseas, I am sure it is something noone will do.
So, just adding the ability to walk on water without any other benefits, in fact, a penalty for attacking from water could balance it for the early version of the spider, or even the inability to attack from water could be better.

 

[Breez]

Would it be possible to add some basic tech requirements for the advanced promotions? I'm all for powerful spiders, but being surrounded by 8/7 barbarian spiders with +200% in bonuses before I can even get hunters seems slightly... absurd.

ps: hi

I am not seeing this happen, I can see how you could be surrounded by baby spiders, but not promoted giant spiders. They are just born too slow early on.

Also note: the Brood has a Minimum City Size limitation. You can't sacrafice a 2nd spider till the capital is Size X, a 3rd till Size Y and a 4th till size Z. (sorry I forgot the exact sizes) Add to that they have to FIRST level a spider up to level 4 and then kill it, then level a spider up to level 5 (free promo doesn't help effect level) and kill it then level another up to 6 etc... In doing that they have to kill off what is almost always their most powerful unit.

If you don't have hunters before that, then maybe you should be using your Archmages and Champions instead

 

[Valkrionn]

I am not seeing this happen, I can see how you could be surrounded by baby spiders, but not promoted giant spiders. They are just born too slow early on.

Also note: the Brood has a Minimum City Size limitation. You can't sacrafice a 2nd spider till the capital is Size X, a 3rd till Size Y and a 4th till size Z. (sorry I forgot the exact sizes) Add to that they have to FIRST level a spider up to level 4 and then kill it, then level a spider up to level 5 (free promo doesn't help effect level) and kill it then level another up to 6 etc... In doing that they have to kill off what is almost always their most powerful unit.

If you don't have hunters before that, then maybe you should be using your Archmages and Champions instead

I believe he meant wild giant spiders.

 

[Breez]

hmm you mean like where he specifically said barbarian spiders?

Oops. How did I miss that? My apologies, I feel rather silly ATM.

I was not surrounded but I did have 1 Giantspiderspawnfromhell single handedly slaughter anyone I sent out side my city for a while so I can understand that. I simply ended up ganging up on him... after he had slowly wiped out 80% of the forces I had made up to that point.

 

[Greeney]

Hey everybody. I just downloaded FF and it was the Archos that I wanted to try the most. I had read about them here and found them very appealing. I still have a lot to see about the mod but I've liked a lot what I've seen so far. I have several questions and suggestions, though.

1. The explanation for the Brood Chamber is confusing. I thought I needed a lvl4 spider for the first free promotion. Either I'm doing something wrong or you actually need a lvl 5 spider. I had two spiders in my capital, one lvl4 and the other lvl 5, and I could only sacrifice the lvl5 spider (it was the first sacrifice).

Then you get the Brood Chamber in the list of buildings of the city menu:

Brood Chamber.
+Spider units get 1 free promotion.
+Upgrade requires Nest Population of 8.
+Upgrade requires Giant Spider of Level 5 or more.

That "Level 5 or more" is "6 or more". I can only go for the second free promo with a lvl6 spider, it won't let me sacrifice a lvl5 spider.

2. The event about the Haruspex asking for a sacrifice for mother pops up too often. At some point, it pops up every 4 or 5 turns. Is this intended? What are the requirements for the event to show up? I'm guessing you need your cities to be happy to avoid it. Am I right? Which in practice means you need at least happiness 8 to get a poulation 8 capital. Isn't that little bit too much, taking into account you get that event also for other cities apart from the capital?

3. Shouldn't Raghodessa be changed? The first level, "attack multiple times per turn" is worthless unless you researched Horseback Riding and got a mobility promotion. Sure, HR is an early tech but definitely not a priority for the Archos. It would just make sense that you get +1 movement before you are given the chance to attack several times per turn.

Water spiders look nice but only is specific situations. Maybe they could get a +10% strenght at first level to make them more generally appealing.

I don't know how, but I got a spider with 2 different specilizations: Argyroneta and Textus. How is that possible?

4. I really think the problem with spiders in the later game is not the fact that they become weaker in comparison to other units. The problem is that it isn't rewarding, not even very thematic, that you've been caring for your spiders for the whole game only to find you will outdate them with the little effort of building a higher tier unit in a city.

I think more spiders could be sacrificed. Right now, it goes up to lvl 7 and then four free promotions. If I'm not wrong, the last sacrifice is a lvl 7 spider at city size 16. To that I would add a second lvl 7 spider at size 18, giving +1 movement to newborn spiders; and a third lvl 7 spider at size 20, giving +1 strenght.

Now, that's strenght 7 spiders with 4 free promos and 2 movement. Yeah, they look too powerful. But then again, how long does it take to level up 6 spiders (3 of them to lvl 7) and then grow your city to 20 (with that annoying "sacrifice for mother" event...)? A little while. By that time, other civs can probably mass-produce other units of similar strenght. Is it easy to get those spiders? No. Is it rewarding? Yes.

And to add up to mix, Haruspex and Spiderkin should be made weaker and given the chance to "ride spider" or something like that. They would be something like 2 or 3 strenght weaker than now, but if you "add them" to a promoted spider, the resulting unit would get the spider's promos and be slightly stronger than usual druids and beastmasters. Of course, a heavily promoted spider born in the perfect nest plus a Haruspex or Spiderkin would make a very powerful unit, but you only get 4 of each of those (and you won't have that many very powerful spiders).

I don't know if it's doable, but it would be great. Most barbarian civs are better at the early game. I wouldn't mind something different for a change. This spider-haruspex-spiderkin based Archos would work at the early and mid-late game, I think.



Off-topic:

I got a bit lost when downloding the mod. I didn't know if I should get a specific FFH patch, or if FF was compatible with patch Z, and didn't find anything about it in the forum.

As there's no manual from FF (which I understand, because it's hard to keep track of all the changes), a fixed thread for each FF civilization could be a good idea, with an opening post where tweaks to every civ could be explained.

Something I didn't like in FF is a message in one of the images for "a great person is born" asking for suggestions about for FF and giving a link to the forum. I see the modmod is in constant development, but that message gave me a feeling of being playing an "incomplete" mod, while at the same time it looks to me that FF is already very playable and coherent. I know it sounds a little stupid, but I'd leave those messages for the load screen and take them out of the actual game.

Thanks for all the work you've done here.

 

[xienwolf]

Do you remember which GP it was? I thought that all of the images were distributed finally.

The level requirements for Brood Chambers, and taking Textus as a second spec promotion are both fixed for next patch already.

 

[Breez]

Welcome, keep in mind my opinions don't mean any more than yours, I am just pointing out a different point of view.

1. The explanation for the Brood Chamber is confusing. I thought I needed a lvl4 spider for the first free promotion. Either I'm doing something wrong or you actually need a lvl 5 spider. I had two spiders in my capital, one lvl4 and the other lvl 5, and I could only sacrifice the lvl5 spider (it was the first sacrifice).

Then you get the Brood Chamber in the list of buildings of the city menu:

Brood Chamber.
+Spider units get 1 free promotion.
+Upgrade requires Nest Population of 8.
+Upgrade requires Giant Spider of Level 5 or more.

That "Level 5 or more" is "6 or more". I can only go for the second free promo with a lvl6 spider, it won't let me sacrifice a lvl5 spider.

bug already reported and fixed, New Patch hasn't come out so we see that fix yet

2. The event about the Haruspex asking for a sacrifice for mother pops up too often. At some point, it pops up every 4 or 5 turns. Is this intended? What are the requirements for the event to show up? I'm guessing you need your cities to be happy to avoid it. Am I right? Which in practice means you need at least happiness 8 to get a poulation 8 capital. Isn't that little bit too much, taking into account you get that event also for other cities apart from the capital?

I havn't played my Archos past turn 150 yet but I never got this once. (maybe I didn't have unhappiness?) Us the button on the food line to prevent growth that cuases unhappiness.

Yes you need 8 happiness for pop 8 city, but resources and buildings make it not very hard to get.

3. Shouldn't Raghodessa be changed? The first level, "attack multiple times per turn" is worthless unless you researched Horseback Riding and got a mobility promotion. Sure, HR is an early tech but definitely not a priority for the Archos. It would just make sense that you get +1 movement before you are given the chance to attack several times per turn.

Doesn't that (or their next level) add +1 movement? Alternatively being on roads, or using an item to increase movement can effect it too. But yes Horse riding definatly helps. This is my faovrite of all the spiders

[/quote]Water spiders look nice but only is specific situations. Maybe they could get a +10% strenght at first level to make them more generally appealing.[/quote]

Maybe, but I don't really have an issue with them simply being a specialized not normally used unit.

I don't know how, but I got a spider with 2 different specilizations: Argyroneta and Textus. How is that possible?

another reported and fixed bug, just waiting on new patch

4. I really think the problem with spiders in the later game is not the fact that they become weaker in comparison to other units. The problem is that it isn't rewarding, not even very thematic, that you've been caring for your spiders for the whole game only to find you will outdate them with the little effort of building a higher tier unit in a city.

I think more spiders could be sacrificed. Right now, it goes up to lvl 7 and then four free promotions. If I'm not wrong, the last sacrifice is a lvl 7 spider at city size 16. To that I would add a second lvl 7 spider at size 18, giving +1 movement to newborn spiders; and a third lvl 7 spider at size 20, giving +1 strenght.

Now, that's strenght 7 spiders with 4 free promos and 2 movement. Yeah, they look too powerful. But then again, how long does it take to level up 6 spiders (3 of them to lvl 7) and then grow your city to 20 (with that annoying "sacrifice for mother" event...)? A little while. By that time, other civs can probably mass-produce other units of similar strenght. Is it easy to get those spiders? No. Is it rewarding? Yes.

This is exactly why the recent changes to the spiders happened (and this thread started) Personally I would like to see more promotions added so they can scale higher when highly experienced.

Did you cast the ritual Feral Bond? It adds the Strong promotion to all animals, including all of your living spiders +1 Attack and +1 Defense. Late game thing tho.

And to add up to mix, Haruspex and Spiderkin should be made weaker and given the chance to "ride spider" or something like that. They would be something like 2 or 3 strenght weaker than now, but if you "add them" to a promoted spider, the resulting unit would get the spider's promos and be slightly stronger than usual druids and beastmasters. Of course, a heavily promoted spider born in the perfect nest plus a Haruspex or Spiderkin would make a very powerful unit, but you only get 4 of each of those (and you won't have that many very powerful spiders).

I don't know if it's doable, but it would be great. Most barbarian civs are better at the early game. I wouldn't mind something different for a change. This spider-haruspex-spiderkin based Archos would work at the early and mid-late game, I think.

Did you read this thread? suggested a few times. He is considering allowing the Haruspex to combine with a spider to make a better over all unit, with strengths from both units for instance.

Off-topic:

I got a bit lost when downloding the mod. I didn't know if I should get a specific FFH patch, or if FF was compatible with patch Z, and didn't find anything about it in the forum.

FF only really NEEDS FfH base with no patch. the FfH patches are contained once you patch up to current FF patch.

As there's no manual from FF (which I understand, because it's hard to keep track of all the changes), a fixed thread for each FF civilization could be a good idea, with an opening post where tweaks to every civ could be explained.

http://www.vehemence.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Work in progress

 

[Breez]

Do you remember which GP it was? I thought that all of the images were distributed finally.

I have seen that quite often.

I ignore it tho.

 

[Valkrionn]

Do you remember which GP it was? I thought that all of the images were distributed finally.

There are a few that are a pink screen, and one or two coming up with the 'Suggest an image' screen.

Did you cast the ritual Feral Bond? It adds the Strong promotion to all animals, including all of your living spiders +1 Attack and +1 Defense. Late game thing tho.

Actually the 'Strong' promotion comes from having a large nest. The Ritual grants Heroic Strength and Defense to all animal units. Which is even better, especially when you have Mother.

http://www.vehemence.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Work in progress

Very much in progress, but you can see the general idea of each civ.

 

[xienwolf]

I must have updated my copy of the distribution version personally then. We DO have images for everything, and the SHOULD line up properly now. I just went through and re-tested them all again.