archphoenix's HOF attempts -- win

[LulThyme]

Sorry for the trade necro.

6.single NGPT, before first maintain building(temple) built.
use all GPTs to buy tech from AI (or just gift them), 20 turns later, you will reward by 200-300golds.

Is this allowed?
Doesn't this fall under the double negative GPT rule?

9.classical re-revolution trick, if first republic revolution last more than 3 turns .

Can somebody confirm that this doesn't work anymore?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

The re-revolution trick does not work in conquests.
The negative thing I think is not allowed, but he never did it, I don't think. it's a little different with chieftain, as there is no penalty at all for negative spending.

 

[LulThyme]

The negative thing I think is not allowed, but he never did it, I don't think.

He built his temple extremely late (after he hand-built the Colossus, which is very inefficient culture-wise) which seems to indicate he followed his advice to wait for the -gpt to run out to build it:

6.single NGPT, before first maintain building(temple) built.
use all GPTs to buy tech from AI (or just gift them), 20 turns later, you will reward by 200-300golds.

it's a little different with chieftain, as there is no penalty at all for negative spending.

As far as I understand, the only difference in chieftain is that you will not get any penalty (buildings being sold, etc...) when your treasury actually runs out. In fact, this means that his advice to wait for the temple is actually not useful in Chieftain.

By my understanding, the lack of penalty in Chieftain is in fact irrelevant to the double negative GPT rule which he suggests.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

That's a good question.

So, what I think archphoenix was saying was this:

once you meet an AI, set slider to 0 and give all GPT to the AI, then set science back to 100%. If you don't build a temple, you are in single NPT.

I think that's probably wrong - on any level but chieftain, you start losing buildings. Of course, on chieftain, there's no penalty at all, so maybe it shouldn't count.

I sort of assume the impact of this is small and I'm not sure he actually did this, but it does make for an interesting question. So, HOF moderators... is this legal?

 

[LulThyme]

once you meet an AI, set slider to 0 and give all GPT to the AI, then set science back to 100%. If you don't build a temple, you are in single NPT.

As I understand it, that is the textbook definition of double-negative GPT, whether you build a temple or not. You are creating money out of thin air.

Here is the rule from the HOF:

"When engaged in negative GPT, you may not have an active deal (nor make one) with any AI involving your gold, lumps sums or GPT. "

Which is exactly what happens once you set the slider back to 100% science.

I think that's probably wrong - on any level but chieftain, you start losing buildings.

According to the rules, it seems to be wrong on all levels.

Of course, on chieftain, there's no penalty at all, so maybe it shouldn't count. I sort of assume the impact of this is small and [...]

The fact that there's no penalty on Chieftain makes it even more abusable! To use this "trick" and make money out of thin air, you need to avoid having buildings on higher difficulty level while on Chieftain, you can do it even if you have buildings.

I havn't really tried it but it seems to me you could basically double your commerce intake on Chieftain with this trick by running max gold, trading it away in GPT deals and then running 100% science and getting your money (that didn't exist) back by selling your techs. Being on chieftain, you would get no penalty at all. You probably would have to time it so that the AIs don't spend all the money or something but I think that's controllable.

Seems like a pretty big abuse if it works this way.

I'm not sure he actually did this, but it does make for an interesting question. So, HOF moderators... is this legal?

All in all, I'm finding his whole post quite fishy.
He gives a list of tips, most of them extremely basic, two of which don't actually work (one is the re-revolution trick and the other one being "use gold to help the FP city build courthouse and market, then start FP at once.", as you will not be able to switch to FP if you use gold to help the city) and one "advice" which is against the HOF rules and seems to have been followed, according to the build dates.

It's quite obvious that English isn't his native language. Well that may explain some confusion, I still don't understand how you can end up giving advice that doesn't actually work in-game.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I wasn't trying to argue - I was trying to interpret what archphoenix says. I think you are correct.

My belief is that archphoenix was interpreting it where it was ok to do this before you have actual (units or buildings) expenses. I don't know that it's true or not.

I think that the impact of this is very low - I tried one where I cooked everything (SGL rushed collosus, had 2 cows, rivers everywhere, gold and ivory) and I was able to get 340 extra gold from it, which is a lot, but only enough to rush part of a temple, rush the lib and part rush the colloseum.

I figure I took less than a turn off what would be my final date.

that said, I think I agree that it is double negative and an exploit.

 

[killercane]

I wasn't trying to argue - I was trying to interpret what archphoenix says. I think you are correct.

My belief is that archphoenix was interpreting it where it was ok to do this before you have actual (units or buildings) expenses. I don't know that it's true or not.

I think that the impact of this is very low - I tried one where I cooked everything (SGL rushed collosus, had 2 cows, rivers everywhere, gold and ivory) and I was able to get 340 extra gold from it, which is a lot, but only enough to rush part of a temple, rush the lib and part rush the colloseum.

I figure I took less than a turn off what would be my final date.

that said, I think I agree that it is double negative and an exploit.

I think I remember looking at AP's 10 AD save in that 1130 game and he had some crazy amount of gold (against Chieftain AI, not Sid!). Dont remember the details though.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I think I remember looking at AP's 10 AD save in that 1130 game and he had some crazy amount of gold (against Chieftain AI, not Sid!). Dont remember the details though.

he had > 3K. That's not all that surprising, though, and wouldnt' be explained by this exploit. You get crazy amounts of gold in a 20K game by then, because you race to Shakespeare's, and then the rest of the MA techs are relatively cheap, so if you build markets everywhere and run specialists, you easily build up several thousand gold. I often enter the IA in these low-level games with 2K or so, and i'm doing a fair amount of cash rushing along the way.

 

[LulThyme]

he had > 3K. That's not all that surprising, though, and wouldnt' be explained by this exploit. You get crazy amounts of gold in a 20K game by then, because you race to Shakespeare's, and then the rest of the MA techs are relatively cheap, so if you build markets everywhere and run specialists, you easily build up several thousand gold. I often enter the IA in these low-level games with 2K or so, and i'm doing a fair amount of cash rushing along the way.

Actually, in that save, he's getting 152 gold per turn from an AI.

It looks like by that time, he is using the "trade resource for GPT, get the GPT back for techs and then deny the resource" trick though, which I believe is legitimate.

As I said, the only suspicious thing is is very late Temple build coupled with his own advice to build the Temple late to be able to use the double NGPT in the early game (even though that is in fact not necessary).

For reference, here is his start:
T2 Palace
T9 Pyramids (rushed)
T19 City #2
T20 Oracle (rushed)
T24 City #3
T43 Colossus
T47 Temple

By this time, he has two luxuries in his territory for a max happy population of (4+2+2=8). A temple would give two more, because of the Oracle, while the Colossus under despotism yields something like 2 more commerce (the extra commerce on the river+road squares is lost to the Despotism penalty).

Culture-wise, it probably cost him on the order of 100 culture to build in this order, so about a turn.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Actually, in that save, he's getting 152 gold per turn from an AI.

It looks like by that time, he is using the "trade resource for GPT, get the GPT back for techs and then deny the resource" trick though, which I believe is legitimate.

It isn't legitimate if it sends the AI to negative gpt. Trust me here.

 

[LulThyme]

It isn't legitimate if it sends the AI to negative gpt. Trust me here.

It seems you're right. How do you tell if the AI is in NGPT?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

It seems you're right. How do you tell if the AI is in NGPT?

I couldn't think of anything that you could reliably tell it from just looking at it.

The best you could do would be to try to tell it by deduction. You can always tell if an AI has a positive income, by offering one gold for x gpt and looking at what your advisor tells you. "Never accept" means that the amount of gpt that you put on the table exceeds their income. All the other phrases that he has in stock all mean that the AI has so much gpt.

Now, if you end up taking more than what they actually had (before all this gpt, tech, cash to and fro and resource pillaging etc) they must be in negative gpt.