are retrograde thrusters OP?

[rawrkitty]

I dont mean are they unfairly strong, i mean are they so much better than any other choice that no one will reasonably take anything else with out falling off hard?

It seems like an odd question but from the games i've watched and the one i've played i have to say, i cant see myself ever playing with out retrograde thrusters chosen, maybe it's just me but i feel that it's so vital to starting well, lol

 

[ggmoyang]

Well, I don't think so.

With Tectonic scanner you can see titanium, which can be improved at the start. Titanium mines give +4 production, where hills have only 1 production.
With Lifeform Scanner your explorer can avoid all the alien nests, potentially discovering more resource pods and excavation site. Others have its benefits too.

 

[Cyon]

Nah I think it has two fair rivals, tectonic scanner and the continental surveyor.

fusion reactor seems weak though, 100 energy is only half of rule rush buy cost of a explorer do in ciV terms its only 70 gold, I think they should increase it to 150 energy instead. And the life form scanners value depends on if it reveals new nests during the game or not. If it is still to weak maybe it could reveal aliens within one hex from a nest as well?

 

[Lord Shadow]

So far, videos I've watched have reliably shown pretty decent starting locations within the basic radius, so retrograde thrusters don't seem particularly critical.

Might be more useful in the higher difficulties, where there's less room for imperfection.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

How can it be overpowered when there is a chance it will totally unnecessary? The middle seven tiles might be the best ones. In which case a life form scanner or tectonic scanner or continental surveyor to get a jump on scouting for your second city.

 

[rawrkitty]

So far, videos I've watched have reliably shown pretty decent starting locations within the basic radius, so retrograde thrusters don't seem particularly critical.

Might be more useful in the higher difficulties, where there's less room for imperfection.

you hit the nail on the head there

I guess my perception is quite bias, i tend to play mostly on diety and multiplayer a lot, and the difference between staggering my starting city by 1-2 turns for instance in civ5 to get a better start often results in unreasonably high snowballing even early on, with retrograde thruster you can almost garuntee you get a start adherent to your UA.

So like i plan on playing PAC a lot and i know ill run retrograde and drop in, ignore a lot of food and expand there later with energy and have MASSIVE production early on, that kind of thing seems to trump any other equipment, i guess the strategic resource on is pretty good too

 

[OldEarthRelic]

It appears that starting location in BE is less important - with a flat gain for the city rather than a minimum (which made hills great), and less terrain limited buildings. So the retrograde thrusters wouldn't be as good.

 

[gunnergoz]

I can see no more or less utility to RT than any other ship choice - each can conceivably be useful for a particular seeding plan.

 

[Cyon]

Well RT also reaveals a lot of extra tiles which is also useful

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I'd say befoer the recent addition of FOW lifting they were rather lackluster.
As it is, they seem like a viable option even if you don't necessary need the extra settle range.

 

[gunnergoz]

I do concur with Cyon's earlier comment that Fusion Reactor's 100 Energy seems wimpy. Increasing it from 100 to some other figure is one way to handle the shortfall and I'm sure others could be thought up, e.g. the "reactor" remains operational in the new city and doubles city energy output for the first X number of turns. That sort of thing...

 

[Gort]

The thing about the 100 energy is that it'll ALWAYS be useful, even if it's not a huge deal. The tectonic scanner may tell you nothing except that there isn't anything useful nearby.

 

[Tomice]

In Civ5 we had heavily "buffed" staring locations. There was more or less a guarantee that your capital would be awesome. They had code calculating the worth of surrounding tiles and gave you some extra ressources if it wasn't good enough.
I doubt they got completely rid of this.

Personally, I find the continental surveyor awesome (I like to play on water-heavy maps). Knowing all strategics early is also very strong. Never stumblimg into an alien nest by chance is also nice.

I'd rate RT as second weakest bonus. And yes, 100 energy is really bad in comparison.

 

[joncnunn]

I dont mean are they unfairly strong, i mean are they so much better than any other choice that no one will reasonably take anything else with out falling off hard?

It seems like an odd question but from the games i've watched and the one i've played i have to say, i cant see myself ever playing with out retrograde thrusters chosen, maybe it's just me but i feel that it's so vital to starting well, lol

It's only likely to ever be Over Powered in a multi player game.
For the simple reason that in Single Player if you don't select it and find the ideal tile is 2 hexes away you'll just rage-restart.

Murphy's law may also strike so that when you do select it, your actually already centered on the best tile and so don't use it at all.

In Civ5 we had heavily "buffed" staring locations. There was more or less a guarantee that your capital would be awesome. They had code calculating the worth of surrounding tiles and gave you some extra ressources if it wasn't good enough.
I doubt they got completely rid of this.

While it may have been the intent (there indeed is a "fertility calculator" and it does indeed buff locations to get them to it, due to some basic flaws in the calculation in Civ V, not all starts are awesome.
Particularly bad in Civ V are plains non-fresh water starts.
But this also includes cases where hammers were really poor (but the food + gold score offset it in the code fertility calculations used.)

It's very likely to be the case in BE that a human will weigh these factors differently than the formula does.

 

[Tomice]

It's very likely to be the case in BE that a human will weigh these factors differently than the formula does.

Thank you for the details!
I don't doubt that a competent human can often use RT's to his advantage. But the fact that there are probably buffs in place to boost the default location surely lets RT's look less appealing.

 

[MadDjinn]

at the very least you get the boosted sight range, which means early game scouting is much more efficient.

 

[Gamewizard]

The buffed retrograde thrusters are better on pangaea maps, for the potential of uncovering the most amount of land tiles. An islands map I would rather have continental surveyor (follow the algae!).

After watching the Fan-Friday video, where he picked the 100 energy, I am more impressed with that choice. It gets you that much closer to your first rush purchase, which could be your first worker, a second military unit to clear a nearby nest, or even better, to set up a trade route with Adept Blue as soon as it sets up shop 5 tiles from your capital. Too bad in his video he completely neglects his stockpile of energy, however.

 

[gunnergoz]

A newly founded colony might accumulate 100 Energy after, what, 15-20 turns, assuming 5 or 6E/turn? That 100 E in the bank from turn 1 with FR looks good from that perspective. OTOH, a couple of good exploration pods and an expedition dig or two later would easily beat that reward and RT could help you find them quick. BE is making me appreciate the many ways there are to skin a cat in this game.

 

[rawrkitty]

yeah in retrospect i guess it isnt OP" but for my general playstyle it seems to be, i rarely have games in civ5 where i start in a spot im comftorable building a city in.

almost half of my games i move my settler 1 tile and found, and almost a quarter of them i move the settler 2-3 tiles and waste a turn to foundand found on turn2.

But then again that's also reflected by the fact that i prefer hills over coast, and hills over grass.
alien nests and coastline just seems useless to me, since neither of those have tangable benefits, only meta anaylasis that doesnt have gamechanging effects, and strat resources is amazing i agree, and i still feel the gold is just useless

 

[Gamewizard]

and i still feel the gold is just useless

I'm not sure how one could say that. If you save energy to buy a colonist (which are very expensive to produce by the way) then you are shaving turns off the time that second (or third) city takes to start being productive. Like gunnergoz said, that is 15-20 turns worth of early game energy.