Are Science and Religion Incompatible?
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Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Indeed.
1 person was late for a plane that crashed: miracle.
300 persons were in time and died in that plane crash: tough.
ArneHD
Just a little bit mad
As methods for deriving knowledge about the world around us, science and religion are incompatible. As a method for deriving knowledge about the world around us, and system of beliefs not directly concerning the world around us respectively, science and religion are capable of coexisting. What compatibility would even mean in this context is somewhat unclear.
CommonKnowledge
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I thought a miracle was meant to be something unexplainable rather than something unlikely? It's unlikely that I could first time flip a coin 1000 times and get heads on every flip due to the proabability of 1 in a million. But if everyone in the country performed the same experiment there would probably be a few people who did manage it. I guess those people had miracles.
ghostmaker650
Warlord
Something that's contrary to probability or prediction is NOT a miracle in any way.
You not dying in a plane crash because your dog ate your homeworks is well within the realm of possibility (NOT a miracle). Your plane going faster than the speed of light is known to be impossible, so if your plane did go FTL then you just witnessed the impossible (a miracle). Show us something being done that's scientifically known to be impossible.
Remember, possible=/=miracle. Impossible=miracle
CELTICEMPIRE
Zulu Conqueror
Science and Religion do perfectly together
According to Max Planc Religion and Science work a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
According to Max Planc Religion and Science work a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
dIZZyBlIZZy
Batteries not included
I think miracles have a measure of personal gain, or yo an outside observer, a revelation of common sense, IMHO. Also it does not necessarily have to be improbable. Easiest example I can think of an hour before bed:
Two guys (we'll call them Bill and Bob) take those coins to a casino instead of spending them. The experiment you gave did not imply but would likely be 25¢ US. They decide to play the dollar progressive now passing $10 million.
Bill hits the progressive at over $10 million. This is unlikely. To Bill, it's a miracle. To Bob it's not.
Afterwards, they play a bit longer. Bob has just enough money left for a case of Milwaukee's Best, so he gets up and leaves. This is not necessarily unlikely, and to Bob and Bill, it's no miracle. But to those crying out for common sense, it is.
This is how I perceive people's decision on what qualifies as a miracle, but, as was already posted in this thread, personal observation can be incorrect.
Edit @ghostmaker650
If that plane did go FTL, then the event is no longer impossible, thus not a miracle by your example. That argument is circular. If we go by Meriam-Webster, it says supernatural causes, not impossible (though supernatural could be perceived as impossible).
civ2
Emperor
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Miracle or Coincidence?
Quite natural, yet VERY "convenient".
(Also, check the parts about Nazis and Stalin.)
If you limit miracles to ONLY the "open" ones, you won't see too much, but G=d's Hand CN be seen in MANY events, that LOOK "natural".
That's where we differ:
I say that miracles do not have to be specifically "unnatural", like splitting of the Reeds Sea; there are numerous events in our life that could qualify as "hidden miracles", all we need to do is to open our eyes to see them.
Biased people are unable to do so, and thus they claim "no miracles".
In my next post I'll hopefully bring few examples of such "natural miracles".
And, btw, if you get something of a 1/1000000 probability "just for fun", it doesn't mean it's a miracle, but if it saves your life, it is.
Not due to your attitude, but due to the reasons it happened.
The former is of little importance to anyone, while the latter has a direct impact on your life, to the extent of "to be or not to be".
So, see you next post.
Quite natural, yet VERY "convenient".
(Also, check the parts about Nazis and Stalin.)
If you limit miracles to ONLY the "open" ones, you won't see too much, but G=d's Hand CN be seen in MANY events, that LOOK "natural".
That's where we differ:
I say that miracles do not have to be specifically "unnatural", like splitting of the Reeds Sea; there are numerous events in our life that could qualify as "hidden miracles", all we need to do is to open our eyes to see them.
Biased people are unable to do so, and thus they claim "no miracles".
In my next post I'll hopefully bring few examples of such "natural miracles".
And, btw, if you get something of a 1/1000000 probability "just for fun", it doesn't mean it's a miracle, but if it saves your life, it is.
Not due to your attitude, but due to the reasons it happened.
The former is of little importance to anyone, while the latter has a direct impact on your life, to the extent of "to be or not to be".
So, see you next post.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Defining a miracle as an unlikely event with a positive outcome really is grasping at straws.
civ2
Emperor
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Please, read this thoroughly.
"Miracle" is not so much about "seeing unnatural", but rather about "seeing G-d actively changing our life".
And we can do that even within the realm of "natural", if we divest our mind of the BIASED premise that "natural is NOT miraculous", cause it more than often IS.
I'm still looking for modern miracles ONLINE, I've read a few books on it, but it was long ago, so I need to remember the names...
"Miracle" is not so much about "seeing unnatural", but rather about "seeing G-d actively changing our life".
And we can do that even within the realm of "natural", if we divest our mind of the BIASED premise that "natural is NOT miraculous", cause it more than often IS.
I'm still looking for modern miracles ONLINE, I've read a few books on it, but it was long ago, so I need to remember the names...
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Or rather desperately wanting to see God's hand in every coincidence.
By the way, the subtitle of that article states: "Coincidence is God's way of choosing to remain ANONYMOUS."
So God chooses to stay anonymous, but you have to drag him into them light against his will. Leave the poor deity be for Christ sake. Why are you going against God's wishes?
Ah yes, that is the biased premise. Not the other way around. Gosh no.
I have one.
I was playing Shogun Total War yesterday and saw a huge Date army walking towards my poorly defended Takeda city. I had a rookie assassin close by and I manages to stall the big army 3 times with a 44% success chance so I could bide some time to muster an army which could only just repel the invaders. Cost me 1250 per turn, but that's a small price to pay for a miracle. I would have praised the Lord, but I'm Shinto Buddhist, so I just thanked my lucky stars.
CommonKnowledge
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All that article talked about was how a rabbi had a few coincidences in his life which in retrospect he dubbed "miracles."
When I was growing up there was a point when my dad was offered a job in Scotland and, had he accepted, I would have gone to school in Dunblane. Back in 96 was the Dunblane school massacre and that's where I would have been at the time. Was it a miracle that I wasn't? No of course not. It was just a coincidence that I and many others weren't there.
Calling a natural coincidence a miracle is just as illogical as saying that it was a result of "the force" and that "Yoda was watching out of me."
civ2
Emperor
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CK
Exactly my point.
People are too engrossed in denying G-d's intervention (and G-d Himself), that unless He splits the coffee in the pot in front of them (cue Bruce), NOTHING will make them move from their starting point of "no G-d".
For those that take G-d for granted, the opposite is true.
Any single "coincidence" is but a direct revelation of G-d in our EVERYDAY life.
The open miracles are scarce nowadays, while the hidden ones are aplenty.
It takes an open unbiased eye to see them, though.
Whereas it takes a biased idiot to deny the open miracles he would see.
G-d could and can perform the biggest open miracles today.
But there's not-a-small chance, that biased people would attribute it to a range of "reasons", from illusion to hallucination, just to deny it actually WAS a miracle.
So, why bother?
Exactly my point.
People are too engrossed in denying G-d's intervention (and G-d Himself), that unless He splits the coffee in the pot in front of them (cue Bruce), NOTHING will make them move from their starting point of "no G-d".
For those that take G-d for granted, the opposite is true.
Any single "coincidence" is but a direct revelation of G-d in our EVERYDAY life.
The open miracles are scarce nowadays, while the hidden ones are aplenty.
It takes an open unbiased eye to see them, though.
Whereas it takes a biased idiot to deny the open miracles he would see.
G-d could and can perform the biggest open miracles today.
But there's not-a-small chance, that biased people would attribute it to a range of "reasons", from illusion to hallucination, just to deny it actually WAS a miracle.
So, why bother?
_random_
Jewel Runner
And with that in mind, please keep this up. It's fun.
kochman
Deity
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Yeah, so, that's easy, most people don't hold a super-literal translation of the Bible as being true... but are still quite religious.
I understand why extremes could be incompatible, but there are many religious scientists now and throughout history...
ghostmaker650
Warlord
So anytime it looks as though someone was supposed to die but by some means didn't, then it was Gods divine intervention?
CommonKnowledge
Warlord
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In terms of religious babble that's up there with:
"It's not arrogance, it's common sense."
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