Are some civics useless?

[lymond]

Don't be messin' with my Hyperbole

 

[AcaMetis]

I've gotten some use out of Serfdom in casual Marathon games, since it takes ages to regrow pop after a whip even with a Granary and workers generally work in pairs if not threes by default because everything takes forever to improve, so SPI swapping between slavery and serfdom makes sense.

I'd say the only civics that are truly useless are the starting ones, despotism/barbarism/tribalism/decentralization/paganism. Their only theoretical use, aside from them being cheaper to run when the only alternatives available are civics that aren't worth the entry cost (Organized Religion when you've got no state religion, for example), is swapping into one yourself and bribing another AI into one as a way of damaging that AI, but I can't imagine a situation where it'd be worth shooting yourself in the foot just to convince an AI to do the same. If you want to flip an AI going culture out of, say, Free Speech, you'd be better off swapping them into Vassalage than Barbarism since it costs more to run and doesn't benefit the AI much if at all while you can still get some theoretical use out of it.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Once you do understand it you realize why there is no debate that slavery is the single most powerful mechanic in the game. (a thesis can and really has been written on this for years, but I won't do that here) Granted, it's pretty much irrelevant in FFH where I think the civic is only available if you are Evil and have Ashen Veil religion. FFH tends to start really slow but some civs/religions can get some very powerful cities, like Elves and Fellowship of Leaves or the Dwarves.

I tend to play with the vampires and they have a huge benefit from growing large cities to feed on. So that's probably it.

 

[drewisfat]

I've actually done that recently Acametis ^^ though there were also conditions present that warranted anarchy. Could also be theoretical situations early on where only one other civic is unlocked, and it grants the favorite religious bonus with a third party AI you don't want the target AI to have.
The best starting civic is paganism. The religious civics only help if they've spread into the proper cities, you're in the proper stage of the game, and they all have very real downsides. OR with the high upkeep cost, Theocracy preventing spread, Pacifism having potentially very high unit costs, and Free Religion not allowing you to get diplo benefits from a religion.
I think Mercantilism is on par with serfdom tbh. Easy or hard, pangaea or fractal, it just never factors into my games. It pretty much forces you to run Caste simultaneously with it, otherwise marginal cities lose the one thing they do well (trade routes) and wind up with a +1 hammer specialist. However, there's a much better "run during caste" civic in the same group called state property. Sure it's available earlier than State Property, but banking is just never a tech I try to get - unless I'm immediately going to get economics after for Free Trade. Its theoretical use is during a GA where techwise I've gotten banking but not communism. That just doesn't happen too often with the GA timings and tech paths I'm used to. And 1 extra specialist is not that amazing given how much my GP farms are starving down to run the max # of specialists anyways.
I would not have won the Charlie map without environmentalism, so it has a special place in my heart now, and clearly environmentalism > building workers. The insane health boost was necessary for rapid pop growth from sushi to snag diplo win.

 

[Pangaea]

Mercantilism can actually be better in a huge empire, when you have many internal trade routes anyway. Particularly if you have gotten Mids -> Representation. I agree, tho, it's something I usually don't run very often.

 

[Kaiman]

I'd say the only civics that are truly useless are the starting ones, despotism/barbarism/tribalism/decentralization/paganism. Their only theoretical use, aside from them being cheaper to run when the only alternatives available are civics that aren't worth the entry cost (Organized Religion when you've got no state religion, for example)

Plus if you don't have Free Religion available, staying Pagan with no state religion also helps keep certain leaders from getting pissed at you....

Environmentalism is usually a garbage Civic

I've found it useful in OCCs though, where I can grow humongous without State Property (and may not have many tiles that benefit from it anyway) and your whole empire has 0 unhappiness, so that +6 health effectively means +6 population.

 

[Seraiel]

Einviromentalism is useful in late stages of Spaceraces because the Windmills-bonus adds-up.

Seraiel.

 

[ArchGhost]

Pacifism is another; it punishes you for building a military, and not having a strong military is a dangerous game on Monarch+. Perhaps it has some utility on isolated starts or when surrounded by hippy peaceniks?

No no no. Probably the strongest civic in the game (either it or the companion civic Caste System) after Slavery, as long as you have a religion and one or more high population spots +caste system. The boost to GPP is a huge factor in high difficulty where bulbing is very very powerful even without tech trading, or you can just use for GMs to fund research, etc. You don't even need large GP farms or Caste either to use it effectively, it will boost GS generation from 2 Library scientists everywhere you have the religion spread as well, acting almost like PHI trait.

Pacifism also is one of the cheapest civics to run, which greatly offsets the military unit cost for a long while. Especially if you are playing the diplo game to stay out of war and farm great people and don't have a large army anyway, whereupon you reap the super-cheapness of the civic as well on top of the GPP bonus. You have to build a LOT of army for Pacifism to actually start costing you a lot, at which point you shouldn't be in pacifism anymore anyway (something instead like Theo/OR for those benefits to infra/army or just Paganism/Free Religion to stay cheap). Honestly one of the only downsides of Pacifism IMO is you have to run a state religion to utilize it, it's very well designed as pointed out.

Serfdom - lots of jungle chopping, or workshop change over before Steam Power
Environmentalism - growing for UN votes or maxing city sizes with Corps (which i could see doing in a late cultural attempt with Sushi + Free Speech + US + Eman)
Mercantilism - if you're isolated, it comes before Free Market. That's pretty much it. I've never really utilized without a SPI civ where playing around happens more.
All very specialized in application, not very powerful except in that one instance where they are ok.

I have honestly --never-- used Serfdom because it is inferior to all the other civics it competes with for one reason or another (not to mention it is timed...weird, typically coming AFTER the two best Labor civics) and you can just stay in Slavery nearly all game anyway. Would have seen a lot more use in a different civic category I feel.

Emancipation is similar but can be very strong as a comeback mechanic with a lot of land to cottage, pairs very well with Free Speech and Universal Suffrage for later cottage pushes (conquering a lot, or filling out your continent after Astro + contact). And when you are forced to stay in it (UN) it's not the worst hit you could take. I still use it even less than Police State, which I only use if I got the Mids (extremely nice for long grinding wars) or in very late game where ending it with a final war.

The 5 default civics are pretty useless, of course.

They are cheap! And staying in Paganism is both cheap and religiously neutral, which is a great siliver lining. Free Religion is definitely better but not as easily accessible from the start

 

[crullerdonut]

Of the 5 default civics, there are only two which I've actively switched back into: Paganism and Decentralization.

Paganism: Let's say that it's the earlier stages of the game, and you end up with a State Religion in order to use the diplomatic bonus, and also for the +1 . Suppose you also have Monotheism for Organized Religion, and you used its building bonus for awhile to build up your basic infrastructure, and also to pump out Missionaries without Monasteries to spread the religion around. Also suppose that you don't have access to any other religious Civics yet. Then, the time comes that you need to go into total-war-mode and start pumping out units, with buildings being built nowhere or almost nowhere. In that case, you're just wasting by staying in Organized Religion, and it's advantageous to switch back into Paganism (especially if you're not an Organized leader). If you're Spiritual, then you should make that switch right away, but if not, then you have to weigh whether the anarchy turn will be worth it. However, I've had the situation arise that it's basically a free switch back to Paganism, by using the anarchy turn to also switch into Bureaucracy or Hereditary Rule for the first time.

Decentralization: In the cases that the free Specialist from Mercantilism is worth more than the Foreign , but then the Foreign become more lucrative, then it makes sense to switch back into Decentralization if you don't have Free market yet. This can happen if you're ending a Golden Age (where you used Mercantilism+Caste System+Pacifism to maximize ), or if you've just discovered Astronomy on a Continents map, or if some foreign Civs formerly running Mercantilism have switched out and are open to trading with you.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I never use Serfdom. I find Slavery much more effective in terms of getting things done.

 

[Seraiel]

@Lemon Merchant :

Consider Spiritual Civs and Free Civic Change during Golden Ages, Serfdom is powerful for short whiles.

Kind Regards, Seraiel.

 

[Pangaea]

I came to think of another civic. Surfdom. Works best in coastal cities. Also requires some waves.

 

[ArchGhost]

Paganism: Let's say that it's the earlier stages of the game, and you end up with a State Religion in order to use the diplomatic bonus, and also for the +1 . Suppose you also have Monotheism for Organized Religion, and you used its building bonus for awhile to build up your basic infrastructure, and also to pump out Missionaries without Monasteries to spread the religion around. Also suppose that you don't have access to any other religious Civics yet. Then, the time comes that you need to go into total-war-mode and start pumping out units, with buildings being built nowhere or almost nowhere. In that case, you're just wasting by staying in Organized Religion, and it's advantageous to switch back into Paganism (especially if you're not an Organized leader). If you're Spiritual, then you should make that switch right away, but if not, then you have to weigh whether the anarchy turn will be worth it. However, I've had the situation arise that it's basically a free switch back to Paganism, by using the anarchy turn to also switch into Bureaucracy or Hereditary Rule for the first time.

OR is so expensive to run that unless you have a specific purpose for it (spreading state religion or building infrastructure) I think it's a self-defeating option in most games, or at least, not worth staying in for any extended period. And either one of those things you want done as quickly as possible, so you can leave OR expenses behind. And there's the whole diplomatic angle to consider as well as you must remain in a state religion to use it (Paganism is cheap whether you adopt state religion or not). Generally, I personally just don't like using anything other than Paganism/Free Religion or Pacifism (sometimes Theo, in hard war mode and can swing the swap during a Golden Age) for most of the game unless you're SPI and can afford to play around more anyway. Doesn't mesh well to be swapping any more than is really necessary. In the scenario you alluded to I'd just not swap into OR at all or only during the big war build up for mid/late game attack (early game attacks need very little infra)..if it was a "free" swap. It's just a harsh civic. Mind you I do play expand heavy in most games so things like OR and Bureau bite hard in terms of expenses.

Running paganism has another small trade-off to consider beyond being cheap and the option to stay neutral: with multiple religions in your cities, each religion gives +1 culture instead of only the state religion if you are neutral. Very small benefit, but can be a consideration when looking at how to pop borders in young cities if the different AIs are spamming religions at you.

Decentralization: In the cases that the free Specialist from Mercantilism is worth more than the Foreign , but then the Foreign become more lucrative, then it makes sense to switch back into Decentralization if you don't have Free market yet. This can happen if you're ending a Golden Age (where you used Mercantilism+Caste System+Pacifism to maximize ), or if you've just discovered Astronomy on a Continents map, or if some foreign Civs formerly running Mercantilism have switched out and are open to trading with you.

Again, without SPI I find it hard to justify the timing of a Mercantilism swap in the first place as Banking itself just isn't that high priority unless you're gonna go to Economics and Free Market right after, or you can ignore the deliberation entirely and hard swap into State Property when you get there, which is almost always worth it given how powerful the civic is. My GAs would be long spent into either farming GPs or pushing war to entertain a Merc swap...at least without the potential free GM to help get to another GA, which comes along with Free Market access anyway. Maybe if you plan to just run to Rifles and ignore a higher economic civic until later?

One specialist is also not likely to outweigh the two trade routes you will have in any city at that point (unless ALL others are not trading with you) and definitely won't outweigh the 3 routes you get with Free Market.

 

[Orion Pax]

General thoughts, not list of "useless" civics:

Pacifism
Folks have pretty much nailed how useful Pacifism is. One of the main hurdle cited (having to spread religion) in a way makes OR more important as a predecessor potentially. Maybe still not worth the high cost.

Serfdom
Agree on most of what's been said, especially @crullerdonut's breakdown of the K-mod revamp. One thing that makes it so interesting is simply that it offers something quite different than the other 2 main Labor civics. The 3 do very different things, and that is a good thing. To make it better, some have suggested Serfdom could come earlier, with say Monarchy, since the worker bonus is less relevant over time. But since the bonus is pretty decent, I'd love to see the benefit split up, where the bonus still comes with Feudalism, but the base civic (now: worker bonus & - penalty on Towns) comes with Monarchy. Perhaps some other tweaks would need to be made (Monarchy more expensive, etc.), but at least then the civic would be available right around the similar time as Caste at least. And also it's Low Upkeep versus Medium.

It'd also seem to make more sense historically, I'd say. I know that matters less to many, and I'd agree gameplay is crucial. But Serfdom has been around since ancient times in multiple cultures. Pairing it with Monarchy models that well, and Feudalism can still represent a more developed Serfdom of say Middle Age Europe & elsewhere.

Slavery
How overpowered this is. Remember in Vanilla when it was Low Upkeep? Yikes. Since most folks turn off Random Events for understandable reasons, the main nerf of Slave Revolts, is done away with. The Medium Upkeep in BTS, by itself, does little to keep if from being overpowered.

Emancipation
I'm surprised hardly anyone has mentioned this one as near useless! Especially in comparison to Slavery, Caste, and also K-mod Serfdom. It's just poor construction. Again, like Serfdom, its main positive bonus - faster cottage growth - is inherently nerfed by its late timing (and is of course overly-specific). While annoying, I actually do like the dynamic that builds over time as more civs adopt it. The relativity of it is a unique dynamic. What makes its annoyingness so pernicious, is again that it offers little positive benefit.

I think one simple change, though small, would be to make it No Upkeep. At least then you pocket some $. And it would offer at least some benefit in comparison to the other Labor civics, a full 2-step upkeep reduction compared to Slavery & Caste. Not saying it'd be on net better, but the bonus would apply regardless of how many Cottages you're working.

And that'd make sense, realistically: Slavery, Caste, and Serfdom are all somewhat intensive systems of organization. Emancipation isn't even a system - it's an event, basically. What does the upkeep even refer to? Labor laws? Those are later additions to economies, which could be reflected by some kind of small bonuses to Emancipation from later techs / civics. Not sure how feasible it'd be to split features of a civic between techs, but if we're just spitballing.

Mercantilism & Free Market
These 2 seem to make me scratch my head the most, though not that urgently. With Medium Upkeep, Mercanitlism seems often tough to justify even with +3 from Rep. Especially since Low Upkeep Free Market is around the corner. I'm not sure how Mercantilism could be improved? Defensive bonus against Espionage? K-mod flipped their Upkeeps, and while that balances them a bit, I find it to be less realistic, while often negating Free Market's bonus by its new upkeep cost. So then we wait til Corporations to really cash in? I don't like that. In that case, why not just stay in Decentralization? Which I just find a low-key frustrating dynamic. Another bonus to FM could be added, but to me the most logical step is to keep it Low Upkeep, as a minimalist type civic.

Environmentalism
Don't usually use this one, but I like it for having some very clear bonuses. One tweak I think that would offer something different would be a Diplomatic bonus while running it, to model increased international respect. The bonus could be gradual just like other diplo bonuses, and capped of course (+2 or +3?). That way it can't be abused last minute. But it would still have some unique utility for Diplomatic victories, along with maintaining trade routes, preventing late wars, etc.

 

[sampsa]

One of the main hurdle cited (having to spread religion) in a way makes OR more important as a predecessor potentially. Maybe still not worth the high cost.

I very rarely run OR, as it requires an extra tech, extra anarchy (unless SPI). One city can pretty easily whip/chop monastery+missionaries to spread for the best cities for the upcoming pacifism. Pacifism I run close to always, at least for a short period of time.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Honestly I think you people are underestimating serfdom. It's an extremely useful civic for when you quickly have to make a lot of improvements such as when founding lots of new cities in quick succession or at the various tech milestones when you need to build or switch over a lot of improvements. Combine it with stuff like Pacifism that lets you use the now not murdered into the ground pop of your big cities for something other than turning into hammers and you have a powerful combination.

 

[krikav]

@PPQ_Purple
Yes, sometimes you find yourself in that position where you have alot of somewhat new cities, and you really just want to grow your entire empire up in size.
One example would be iso, where you have stayed small pre-optics, then at optics you settle a bunch of new cities. Abit later you get astro and due to resource trades you have a much higher happycap all of a sudden.
You are likely low on workers too, as you have stayed small and saved on upkeep.

In such a situation, you really don't want to run many specialists anywhere, as you want to grow pretty much in every city. Similarly you don't really want to whip anything.
So there is no use for caste/slavery, and you DO have use for the worker efficiency.

Ofcourse there are other situations when circumstances can be similar too, but thats just one example.
The big problem is the anarchy though, because if those circumstances you do not want to run a GA.

 

[krikav]

@BornInCantaloup Outlined a situation where enmancipation could be good.
After a early conquest when you have gotten your hands on alot of good green lush land and you are doing really good, then it could be possible to consider going for lib->democracy and supercharge maturation of a large number of cottages.
I have yet to find myself in such a situation though, but it might be common if a strong player plays on lower difficulties.
Some interesting variant for you to try out in your speedruns to space @Fish Man ?

 

[Orion Pax]

Honestly I think you people are underestimating serfdom. It's an extremely useful civic for when you quickly have to make a lot of improvements such as when founding lots of new cities in quick succession or at the various tech milestones when you need to build or switch over a lot of improvements. Combine it with stuff like Pacifism that lets you use the now not murdered into the ground pop of your big cities for something other than turning into hammers and you have a powerful combination.

I will say, on Marathon, I think I feel Serfdom's worker bonus the most.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

For context I tend to play on very large map sizes and slow game speeds so there is barely ever a game where I don't have several stages of expansion after serfdom hits.
This said one or two turns of anarchy isn't really that big a deal if you ask me.