Are some Civs extremely unlikely to surrender?

[VirgilTheMad]

Hi, long time lurker and second time poster here. I was hoping to become a more active member of the community after my post quite some months ago, but due to circumstances became quite busy. I appreciate the wealth of feedback I've received while lurking here and wish to pose a question to you.

I only play on Prince right now, and typically play "Shuffle" as the map type with Random number of civs, Random AI Personalities, and no huts/events. I just successfully (though far from an ideal finish time; 1982AD) completed a Space Race with Genghis Khan of Mongolia and back around 1050AD, decided it'd be a good time to conquer my continent (the random map happened to be an Archipelago with 5 other civs - Spain and I on our own slice of heaven, the rest fairly isolated). I invade Spain with a bunch of Keshiks, Macemen, Catapults and a bunch of random crap. I know this is far from ideal at this date, but it was successful. As I gained in military techs I upgraded my troops as necessary and continued the pain train, and even though her cities fell one by one (she had 8 to start with and I had 9), she just would not capitulate. I thought when she was down to 4 cities and I was up to 13 she might reconsider, but alas devoted Isabella continued to resist.

In the end I was forced to exterminate her by capturing the last of her cities which proved quite a lengthy and painful process, as no matter how weak her position was she would refuse to capitulate. She did have a mysterious vassal, Washington of America, who I suspect was originally a colony that she granted independence to; I wonder if this had anything to do with it. It took all the way until 1750AD to destroy her completely and by then I had about 15 cities... not a vast empire, but my continent was secure and although I was behind in tech by then (with Asoka of India and Monty of Aztecs in the lead) I had enough land/resources/cities to transition to a peacetime economy and eventually pull ahead. Before the end, Washington came begging to be my vassal and I accepted.

I was hoping for a Domination victory, but I seem hopelessly inefficient at waging war in general but particularly on water maps. Realizing I would never conquer the world before someone else claimed victory I transitioned to the Space Race out of desperation, as is tragically common.

My question is: are some civs extremely unlikely to capitulate? Is there something coded into Isabella's AI that makes her refuse to do so (much like Ghandi with his nukes or Catherine's infamous Friendly backstabs)?

I'd ask for general warmongering advice but I know I can find a wealth of such knowledge here on the site already and will look for some solid strats. Sorry if this post sounds rushed in any way, I'm pretty exhausted but had to get this out there before I pass out.

Thanks for your time.

 

[elitetroops]

She can't capitulate as long as she has a vassal. The vassal must break free first. For a vassal to break free it must have more than 50% of it's masters land AND population. Chances are, that if Washington was a small 2 city island colony, this condition was not met even when Isabella was down to one city. Another possibility for the vassal to break free is if it loses half of it's cities, so to capitulate Isabella, you could have conquered a city or two from Washington.

There is a difference in capitulation behavior also, some AI are harder to capitulate than others. The iVassalPowerModifier value in CIV4leaderheadinfos.xml has an effect on how large your relative power rating has to be. Isabella has a value of 0, which is the standard, so she's nothing special in this regard. Mansa, De Gaulle, Gandhi and Catherine are the easiest to capitulate. Sitting Bull and Genghis Khan are the toughest.

 

[VirgilTheMad]

Ah, this is very good to know. Going after Washington might well have solved this little problem. Also good to know the "least resistant" and "most resistant" to capitulation behaviors. Thank you.

 

[Lennier]

She can't capitulate as long as she has a vassal.

This is not generally true. Civilizations with vassals can capitulate (and when they do, their vassal(s) become independent). It's just very difficult to get civs with vassals to cap. The vassal causes the civ to greatly overrate its own power.

The vassal must break free first. For a vassal to break free it must have more than 50% of it's masters land AND population.

Peace-vassals can break free at will.

Chances are, that if Washington was a small 2 city island colony, this condition was not met even when Isabella was down to one city.

I thought you needed three cities to make a colony.

Another possibility for the vassal to break free is if it loses half of it's cities, so to capitulate Isabella, you could have conquered a city or two from Washington.

It's half it's land area, not number of cities.

 

[elitetroops]

Are you absolutely sure about that? Don't recall anyone with vassals ever capitulating. In any case, you can make a colony with 2 cities.

 

[civfanchambers]

Are you absolutely sure about that? Don't recall anyone with vassals ever capitulating. In any case, you can make a colony with 2 cities.

I can confirm this. I love caping my war target, then on the following turn hearing the war horns as the civ DOW on their former vassal.

 

[Izuul]

I can't say for sure that civs with vassals absolutely cannot capitulate, but i can say from a good bit of a experience that it's extremely unlikely to happen. I can't point to a single instance where i remember it happening (though it might have). What usually happens is that the instant their vassal breaks free they become willing to capitulate.

To answer the original question though, yes there is a great deal of variance between the leaders in terms of how easily they will capitulate. If you look in this fantastic article you will see a value for each leader called "Resists Capitulation" which will show on a scale of 0-10 how much a leader will resist. For example, Mansa Musa is notoriously easy to cap with a rating of 0, while Sitting Bull is incredibly stubborn and rates a 10.

 

[Tatran]

I had enough games where a civ with vassals capitulate to a much bigger civ.
At some point a vassal breaks, the master capitulates and dows their former vassal.
Next (or in the same turn) the vassal also capitulates.

Civ with a colony seems much more reluctant to surrender.