Are the days of large-scale state v state war over?

The people who go on the streets do not necessarily represent the view of the majority who cares, do they? (not saying it's impossible though)

Who cares about the majority who didn't go to the streets? They certainly didn't go out to oppose it in large numbers.
The idiots even volunteered to get killed... :rolleyes:

Interestingly enough, people did go to the streets in London against another war recently, Iraq - not a democracy. And it didn't change anything either. It just goes to show that there is still no link now between democracy, decision-making, and war.
 
Iran is pretty well-known. Reinstatement of the Shah / military coup against the Prime Minister Mossadegh. There is plenty of material out there if you want to know more

Mossadegh disbanded significant parts of the electorate presumably to set himself up for a possible dictatorship. Thats why he was arrested - for abusing the powers of his office. But your point is moot as this action doesnt even meet the definition of asymetrical warfare for the US involvement in all of this. Was the CIA involved? Sure. Was it warfare? Hell no. And since Mosseadegh had disbanded his parliment by that time, its presumably pretty hard to even claim it was a democracy at that point.

As to Congo: I specifically refer to the assassination of President Lumumba by the CIA. An involvement which has been approved as true by a parliamentary committee of the US Senate in 1975, headed by Senator Frank Church.

Lumumba was never even the President, but was rather the Prime Minister. He was removed from office by the President, but fought the dismissal. This enabled Lumumba's own military appointee of the army to stage a coup over both in a naked power grab.

Also, you are cherry picking your information as well. There are conflicting reports of the US's and CIAs involvement in Lumumbas death. There is also a senate intel oversight committee that indicates that although the CIA may have tried to kill him, it was the Belgians that finally got him, and the CIA had nothing to do with his death.

Needless to say, the facts concerning this are indeed contested and not as absolute as you would make them appear.

Lumumba wasnt killed by the CIA, but actually by a firing squad of the opposition forces commanded by a Belgian....and fwiw, a senate intelligence comittee in August of 2000 investigating the incident found that the CIA was not directly involved in his execution.

So your wrong on that one too. Again, CIA involvement in this issue doesnt even reach the level of what is considered today to be asymetrical warfare. We put no troops on the ground, had no military forces at play at all in the Congo situation.

Latin-American examples are Guatemala in the 50s and Chile in the 70s. Again those are fairly well-documented and if interested you will haven no trouble obtaining sufficient background information.

And again, both dont even come close to 'war' or even 'asymetrical warfare' as most commonly defined.

So there are two questions we face here. Is the „enemy“ a democracy? And is it „war“? The former might be debatable at times. None of my examples were stable, liberal, exemplary democracies I guess. But IMO by and large they were democratic enough to prove the "democracies don't wage war against each other"-idea wrong, if we want to call it war that is of course.

I dont think it meets the criteria of 'war' or even 'armed conflict' for that matter. It certainly wouldnt meet the criteria of asymetrical warfare as we never had our own spec ops people running covert missions against those governments.

So what does asymmetrical warfare actually mean? Two definitions I found looking for it for 10mins on google:

„Asymmetric warfare is war between belligerents whose relative military power differs significantly, or whose strategy or tactics differ significantly.“
- Wikipedia
Asymmetric conflict is a “conflict involving two states with unequal overall military and economic power resources.”
- political scientist T.V. Paul in his 1994 book titled "Asymmetric Conflicts: War Initiation by Weaker Powers"

You will note that those are not a lot for 10 mins. That is because it seems that „Asymmetric war“ is quit fuzzy as a term.

The context of your above definitions is important. Generally its a type of warfare done where one nation cannot compete with another in open warfare, and thus has to resort to sabotage or other covert means of warfare. By that criteria the USA never really engages in asymetrical warfare since we are never going to be the weaker of two belligerant states.

In any case those two definitions certainly apply on trying to destroy a government by assassination or fueling pushes and civil wars, as the US has done to other democracies without having to fear attacks or having experienced attacks themselves.

I disagree. In fact, in your Congo example, it was the President of the country itself that removed Lumumba from office, not some covert mission of the CIA.

Here is my suggestion: Organizations/groups which try to enforce a political agenda on a country by using deadly force against the miltary and/or civilians, but without engaging in conventional warfare.
Well that's exactly what the US has done

Nope, by the simple fact that US troops were never part of the examples you give.
 
Interestingly enough, people did go to the streets in London against another war recently, Iraq - not a democracy. And it didn't change anything either. It just goes to show that there is still no link now between democracy, decision-making, and war.

The British Army has not been at war in Iraq since 2003, and has not been undertaking combat operations there since 2009. The only British troops there are a few guys - mostly Royal Navy and Royal Marines coming ashore from nearby ships - using Um Qasr as a training area to get some rifle practise in.
 
@MobBoss
First thanks for sharing your insights.

But to skip right to the core of the argument: At this point I feel an argument about formal details of different terms won't lead anywhere meaningful. Because to what it comes down to is: If flying a plane into a skyscraper is a declaration of war, why would assassinations and the fueling of instability and civil wars not be?
 
@MobBoss
First thanks for sharing your insights.

But to skip right to the core of the argument: At this point I feel an argument about formal details of different terms won't lead anywhere meaningful. Because to what it comes down to is: If flying a plane into a skyscraper is a declaration of war, why would assassinations and the fueling of instability and civil wars not be?

If the Congo wanted to declare war on Belgium for assassinating that guy, then more power to them.

But the real point is, its not as clear cut as you make it sound. All of the examples you give have more than a few controversies in regards to them, and the actual facts surrounding the issues arent all known. Just like you being in error in calling Lumumba 'President' when he wasnt, and he had been actually removed from being Prime Minister by the actual President.

As they day, the devil is in the details and if your details are in error, so are your assumptions based upon those details. Just like your assumptions about the Congo.
 
But to skip right to the core of the argument: At this point I feel an argument about formal details of different terms won't lead anywhere meaningful. Because to what it comes down to is: If flying a plane into a skyscraper is a declaration of war, why would assassinations and the fueling of instability and civil wars not be?

As I recall it the declaration of war was failing to allow Bin Laden to be tried. Afghanistan was informed that to do so would result in an invasion; they decided to hold onto him. The flying of the aircraft per se was not the problem.
 
I am referring to the declaration of war on terror, which as a term is important because it for instance entails treating terrorists as military combatants rather than criminals.

@MobBoss
So if I can present to you a sure case of the scenario I described in my last post, will you face the question of my last post? If yes I shall go through the effort to present one in a manner which hopefully satisfies your skepticism. If I fail to do so you win ;)
 
Re: declaraton of war. Its not needed for us to engage in armed conflict, and history certainly proves this to be the case.

It's at least considered polite to inform the projected enemy of your intentions and to give him an opportunity to avoid conflict. Politics by other means and all that. But you are correct that I was using the term in the loose sense of 'announcement that we're coming to get you'
 
The British Army has not been at war in Iraq since 2003,

What? Those demonstrations on the eve of the war didn't happen? And I guess Oceania has never been at war with Eurasia either.

Really, you can't deny that the british government lied its way into the invasion of Iraq, and had no problem overriding public sentiment.
 
What? Those demonstrations on the eve of the war didn't happen? And I guess Oceania has never been at war with Eurasia either.

No, but they were eight years ago. That's rather stretching 'recently', especially in light of how much the situation has changed in regard to our commitments overseas and politics at home.

Really, you can't deny that the british government lied its way into the invasion of Iraq, and had no problem overriding public sentiment.

More like they didn't dare call Saddam's bluff - it was geniunely believed he had weapons of mass destruction, and was going to fire them at Isreal, which could well have provoked something of a world war - indeed even conventional armaments could well have done so - and so felt they had to ensure that no matter whether or not that very skilled bluffer was lying there would still be a minimal threat to security. Of course, telling the people that they were going to war as the safe option wouldn't have been exactly persuasive, so they did what all leaders do and projected a veneer of self-confidence while planning away behind the scenes for all eventualities. Perhaps not great leadership, and definitely bad luck, but I don't think dishonesty is a fair charge.
 
it was geniunely believed he had weapons of mass destruction, and was going to fire them at Isreal
There can be made an argument for that it was genuinely believed he did so (which still didn't hinder the authorities to lie and make up stuff, like that uranium Saddam allegedly tried to buy in Africa, or those random low resolution satellite photos, or those ridiculous estimates that Saddam could attack the UK with his WMD's). But the second part - that they thought he would fire them at Israel - is absolutely ridiculous. It would have required Saddam to be an absolute lunatic, because there was no rational argument to do so whatsoever. And he was no such thing, as any Middle East expert knew. His Anti-Israel rhetorics were transparent tries to gain popularity, the usual shallow stuff to seem tough and like some sort of defender against the evil others.
 
And the world-war bit was a bit silly too--who would take Iraq's side after they fired at Israel who didn't during the Iraq War?
 
There can be made an argument for that it was genuinely believed he did so (which still didn't hinder the authorities to lie and make up stuff, like that uranium Saddam allegedly tried to buy in Africa, or those random low resolution satellite photos, or those ridiculous estimates that Saddam could attack the UK with his WMD's). But the second part - that they thought he would fire them at Israel - is absolutely ridiculous. It would have required Saddam to be an absolute lunatic, because there was no rational argument to do so whatsoever. And he was no such thing, as any Middle East expert knew. His Anti-Israel rhetorics were transparent tries to gain popularity, the usual shallow stuff to seem tough and like some sort of defender against the evil others.

Uhm. He fired them at Israel during the first gulf war....

Just saying....

And fwiw, I think part of the concern was the belief that Saddam was indeed an absolute lunatic, and certainly not rational.
 
Uhm. He fired them at Israel during the first gulf war....

Just saying....

And fwiw, I think part of the concern was the belief that Saddam was indeed an absolute lunatic, and certainly not rational.

He fired WMD at Israel during the first Gulf War? News to me.
 
He fired WMD at Israel during the first Gulf War? News to me.

No; he fired Scud - which can load a CBRN warhead - and we were absolutely bricking ourselves that one of them would be carrying anthrax or something equally nasty, because my cobbled-together brigade would go from being forward reconnaisance and anti-scud for British (and quite a lot of the former for Allied forces as a whole) in Iraq to having to operate against nearly the entire Arab world (see below), not to mention our coalition would ahve started bleeding partners who wouldn't have been too happy to be seen as siding with Israel on one of its wars of land-grabbing and Arab-bashing.

And the world-war bit was a bit silly too--who would take Iraq's side after they fired at Israel who didn't during the Iraq War?

The worry was that Israel would join the war, which would bring in the Arab nations as a whole who would have been very worreid about the Jews being on the warpath again and keen for a chance to put them back in their place. After that there would have been very large-scale political manoevers and potentially a lot of escalation if the Americans thought Israel was in trouble.

And fwiw, I think part of the concern was the belief that Saddam was indeed an absolute lunatic, and certainly not rational.

I still think he was. Completely insane, or at least so convinced of his own invincibilty that he didn't make plans that the rest of us would recognise as based in reality.
 
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