Are the Pyramids too good?

[Frostyboy]

Scientific Leaders are not that common though. I've never experienced more than one per play. But I think great wonders shouldn't be rushable.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

SGLs are just one example of the many lottery-type bonuses in the game. If you think SGLs are wrong, do you think free cities for Expansionist civs is wrong? They are both things that rarely happen, but are powerful when they do.

I focus on science a lot of the time in my games, and I think the chance of an SGL is a nice reward. I rarely get one in the ancient age. And maximizing your chances of getting one takes effort and planning over many, many turns (and actually begins with your choice of civ.) Often times I play Byzantines just in the hopes of getting an early SGL. And do you know how often it happens? Hardly ever.

Maybe that just makes me a moron, but it's worth the risk to me. When I take Byzantines and go the Philosophy gambit, and a SGL pops up, it's a great feeling and I know that I worked for it. Delaying Iron, Horseman, and other basic techs to focus on advanced techs is a sacrifice.

Rushing the Pyramids may be a bit overpowered, but how often are you in a position to do that? Usually, as has been said, it's a huge investment of shields and time.

Risks should be rewarded, and that's all the Pyramids are.

Yes i think settlers from goody huts are wrong as well. I have discussed that a lot already thing in the gotm forums.

Piramids as a reward for the huge investment you do is good.
Pyramids as a lucky factory because your 10% science run on writing giving you an SGL after you started your game with noone else knowing alphabet is just wrong. (of course i state the worst case scenario here )

 

[KERZHAKOV]

I think that to construct a colossus or the great library it much better than to construct pyramids. Pyramids needed to be made more effective. This my opinion

 

[eldar]

My current HoF attempt would have been made a lot more difficult without getting an SGL from Philosophy that allowed me to rush the Pyramids.

In that respect, yes, SGLs are over-powered, but the Pyramids are not. I could still have chosen to attempt to hand-build them, but I didn't, banking on one of my neighbours doing the job for me (three of them started with Masonry, after all).

 

[Renata]

Agree with what seems to be the prevailing opinion: rushed for no shield cost, the Pyramids are overpowered. Hand-built, they hamper early expansion enough to make them pretty neutral. I've built them a few times only to find myself badly boxed in; other times they've turned out to be good to have. Problem is, it's hard to tell at the point where you need to start building them. I haven't built them in ages. And Emperor and above you can pretty much forget even being able to.

Renata

 

[tR1cKy]

Me too agree: overpowered when rushed, ok when built by scratch. Alas, little to do about it. A flag that mark them "cannot be rushed by leaders" would solve the issue, but such thing is not supported i guess... Perhaps making them obsolete in the early middle ages would be a partial solution.

Or we could simple live with it and consider the whole stuff as a "feature" that adds uncertainity and challenge to the game. An AS that gets the Pyramids very early on, and with good terrain around, is likely to grow huge in the ancient age. It's great when i manage to subdue such an enemy

BTW, it's quite a problem in GOTM games. Too much randomness.

 

[Theoden]

BTW, it's quite a problem in GOTM games. Too much randomness.

SGL's are turned off in GOTM games. The pyramids has to be built by scratch.

 

[tR1cKy]

SGL's are turned off in GOTM games. The pyramids has to be built by scratch.

You would say COTM. SGL are a conquest-only thing (and quite borked).
In GOTMs leaders can rush wonders.

 

[Theoden]

You're right, my bad.
It's because I use the term GOTM to refer to it all, where most people would say XOTM. But yes, I meant in COTM.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I mean that the Granaries don't fit my play style. Yes, I build a fair share of Workers and Settlers, and my favouright form of government is Fascism, but I just find the Granaries just another building that looses gpt.

I only play at Cheiftian, which I blame on selecting 'Accelerated Production' the first few times, thus turning me into an addict. But a recovering addict!

 

[tR1cKy]

Uh uh... classic n00b statement. Do some math and you'll discover how much money you gain by building a granary.

Ironically i rarely build them. 80 shields are much better spent into 4 archers. The gain is much bigger But in a peaceful-style game they are really worth the shields.

EDIT: or are they 60?

 

[Own]

i think they are extremely good, but very hard to get. the tech comes very early, when you're expanding and don't have time for wonders.

 

[InFlux5]

There is a large amount of randomness to the game. Sure some random events are more powerful than others, and surely SGLs are the most powerful. But they are also quite rare. Maybe not rare enough for non-Scientific civs. Perhaps it should be 1% for them instead of 3%. But 5% for the Scientific civs is acceptable to me. Otherwise the trait would be sub-par, just as removing an increased chance for leaders for Militaristic civs would make it subpar. Removing the free cities for Expansionists would make it the worst trait in the game (if it isn't already.) To the above poster who quit upon rushing the Pyramids, would you quit if you got a free city? Would you quit if you got a military leader on turn 15?

Yeah, you might pop a SGL from The Wheel or something every once in a while - maybe a handful of times in your entire Civ "career". But the fact remains that they are rare, and that all civs have an equal chance to get one, among their group (i.e. Scientific and non-Scientific.) I didn't mean to imply in my post that popping a SGL is always the result of planning and effort. But you always know it's a possibility, so you can try for it or not. If you pop one without trying, then you really got lucky. If you try for one, and pop one, you still got lucky.

I guess what I'm saying is, nearly every aspect of the game contains an element of luck, from your starting terrain, to the resources nearby, to your neighboring civs, to your success in battle, and on and on. The combination of the luck factor on SGLs combined with the power of the Pyramids is probably too much. But the fact remains it is a rare event - increasingly so as you move up difficulty levels, since the likelihood of their being completed prior to your SGL goes up. Is an event that happens one in 100 games really that overpowered?

 

[vmxa]

I am with WackenOpenAir. You won't be worried about them at sid. You probably won't want to spend the production and take the chance at Demi and Deity.

Plus you have to be careful that it won't trigger a GA if you do go for it. I never even give them a thought.

 

[Omega Avatar]

Stop moaning. If you're sick of players using the Pyramids cheaply, use a good island map. Then see how much they moan when their 400 shields just gave granaries to the 2 cities on their home island (which probably already have granaries). In the scenario I'm working on, Pyramids become worthless around the beginning of the Middle Ages. Forget exactly which tech makes it obsolete, but ah well.

 

[tR1cKy]

Uh oh... the title of the thread is "Are the Pyramids too good?" - So if someone thinks they're too good what should he/she say exactly?!?

 

[Zenon_pt]

Since Civ2 the Pyramids are one of my favorites wonders. Soo leave the Pyramids along!!!

 

[FeelGood]

There is a large amount of randomness to the game. Sure some random events are more powerful than others, and surely SGLs are the most powerful. But they are also quite rare. Maybe not rare enough for non-Scientific civs. Perhaps it should be 1% for them instead of 3%. But 5% for the Scientific civs is acceptable to me. Otherwise the trait would be sub-par, just as removing an increased chance for leaders for Militaristic civs would make it subpar. Removing the free cities for Expansionists would make it the worst trait in the game (if it isn't already.) To the above poster who quit upon rushing the Pyramids, would you quit if you got a free city? Would you quit if you got a military leader on turn 15?

Yeah, you might pop a SGL from The Wheel or something every once in a while - maybe a handful of times in your entire Civ "career". But the fact remains that they are rare, and that all civs have an equal chance to get one, among their group (i.e. Scientific and non-Scientific.) I didn't mean to imply in my post that popping a SGL is always the result of planning and effort. But you always know it's a possibility, so you can try for it or not. If you pop one without trying, then you really got lucky. If you try for one, and pop one, you still got lucky.

I guess what I'm saying is, nearly every aspect of the game contains an element of luck, from your starting terrain, to the resources nearby, to your neighboring civs, to your success in battle, and on and on. The combination of the luck factor on SGLs combined with the power of the Pyramids is probably too much. But the fact remains it is a rare event - increasingly so as you move up difficulty levels, since the likelihood of their being completed prior to your SGL goes up. Is an event that happens one in 100 games really that overpowered?

I couldn`t agree more with you. It seems everything that give you a bonus in the game is riduculous/overpowered/too powerful . In some situation, yes it is but it is very rare. IMHO, it would only be really very powerful if you`re playing on lower difficulty (< demi I could say), a really good player or having an incredibly good luck or ... Pyramids comes early which poses a really good challenge especially on higher difficulties. It is powerful on pangea but not on small continents or archipelago.

SGL? Yes, it`s powerful but it comes as a reward for you hard work. You invest on the money to research for the tech and pray that you would get it. And as a tech leader, you have to pay for full price. Would you just throw all your degrees away as you find it will give you an easy (if it really is...!) way to get a good job or donate all the money after winning a lottery ? Even AIs could sometimes get it and rush a wonder. And, just forget (or very low priority) about it on higher difficulties.

In conclusion (for me), the pyramids is as good as other wonders: It`s not too powerful nor too weak. Also, consider that everyone has their own way on playing this game. So, it`s up to us to consider all the features in the game. Consider it too powerful, too weak or any other toos then hopefully you can change it in the editor. Thank god that editor allows us to change almost every aspect of the game

 

[jafink]

Personaly i think that the pyramids are way ove . Usually by the time i build them all the cities that need granaries already have them. also i find the granary pretty useless.

 

[gunkulator]

They are overpowered, but I never get the chance to build them anyway. Who can afford the shields so early? I was one of those people that had to be dragged kicking and screaming into building a granary for a settler pump. I used to be convinced that the turns spent building one was not worth it.

I have gotten exactly 1 ancient era SGL - used it for pyramids of course and the game was a cakewalk. In fact, it was and still is my only DG level win.