Are there any synergies in CivIV?

Olson

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I see the word "synergy" misused frequently and several references claiming something increases base hammers, etc. (ie. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11597703&highlight=Forbidden+Palace#post11597703) but I'm not finding any city improvement, civic, or etc. that would multiply an already modified base # of...anything, which would be an actual synergy.

I'm looking for something like: [(base# x %) x %] /or/ [(base# + n) x %].

The synergy-defining element would be a base# gets modified and then that modified result gets multiplied so that "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts".

What is most often called a "synergy" is really a number of different base# modifiers which will get added together, so that "the whole is equal to the sum of its parts", such as, [(base# x %) + (base# x %)] /or/ [(base# + n) + (base# x %)]
 

auagxa

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Mansa Musa (FIN) and his UB (+ 10% :gold:) comes to my mind as I understand by your definition of [(base# + n) x %] where (base# of gold + gold from FIN) x Mint modifier)
 

Seraiel

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Example: Levee increases base-Hammers. Base Hammers build Levee. Base-Hammers have increased themselves by building a Levee.

Is that something like you're searching?
 

Ghpstage

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That definition of synergy will incude anything that increases base values + anything that multiplies that value.

Examples,
Kremlin which increases slaveries base hammer output along with anything that multiplies hammers, e.g. forges or ironworks.

Bureacracy as it multiplies base commerce combined with anything that boosts :science:, :gold: etc outputs, e.g. markets or Oxford.

Theres even one example of something synergising with itself, population!
For trade routes the base value is determined by the popoulation 'over there' and modified by the pop 'over here' when looking from the trading cities perspective. Though it shouldn't be a suprise as population synergises with more or less everything, especially if you use the word definition rather than the maths.
 

Patchface

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I'm not finding any city improvement, civic, or etc. that would multiply an already modified base # of...anything, which would be an actual synergy.

Bureaucracy + Academy, library, university, market, forge, bank, etc

Marble/Stone + failgold + Universal Sufferage

Bureaucracy + religious shrine + espionage

Philosophical + Representation (Pyramids (Stone))/Mercantilism

Financial + Bureaucracy/Universal Sufferage

Expansive + Slavery
 

Olson

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Bureaucracy + Academy, library, university, market, forge, bank, etc

Marble/Stone + failgold + Universal Sufferage

Bureaucracy + religious shrine + espionage

Philosophical + Representation (Pyramids (Stone))/Mercantilism

Financial + Bureaucracy/Universal Sufferage

Expansive + Slavery

I don't see how any of the above are synergies. They seem to be complementary.
 

Olson

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That definition of synergy will incude anything that increases base values + anything that multiplies that value.

Bureacracy as it multiplies base commerce combined with anything that boosts :science:, :gold: etc outputs, e.g. markets or Oxford.

So you're saying Bureaucracy's +50% increases the base and then the market's (+25%) is applied.

IE. City base: 8g + 4g (Bureau.'s +50% of 8)= 12g + 3g (Market's +25% of 12) = 15g.
 

Olson

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I'm not sure how the program considers the following which might be a case where a modified number gets multiplied:

City has Forge (+25% hammers) & connected to Copper (+50% hammers for Colossus) post Mathematics (+50% from forest chopping) by Industrious leader (+50% Wonder).

Worker chops forests to build Colossus.

But if all of the above modifiers are concerned only with the base hammer # then this ie. isn't a synergy.
 

Ghpstage

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So you're saying Bureaucracy's +50% increases the base and then the market's (+25%) is applied.

IE. City base: 8g + 4g (Bureau.'s +50% of 8)= 12g + 3g (Market's +25% of 12) = 15g.
Indeed, its the basis of the Bureacracy cottage capital strategy thats so effective.
I'm not sure how the program considers the following which might be a case where a modified number gets multiplied:

City has Forge (+25% hammers) & connected to Copper (+50% hammers for Colossus) post Mathematics (+50% from forest chopping) by Industrious leader (+50% Wonder).

Worker chops forests to build Colossus.

But if all of the above modifiers are concerned only with the base hammer # then this ie. isn't a synergy.
The forest chops base value will be boosted by 50% to 30, and then multiplied by the total of the rest (2.25)
 

Olson

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Indeed, its the basis of the Bureacracy cottage capital strategy thats so effective.
The forest chops base value will be boosted by 50% to 30, and then multiplied by the total of the rest (2.25)

Thanks. I'm catching on. I haven't found a good Strat.&Tact. article that explains the formulae...in what order the math. operations take place.
 

Patchface

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Hover your cursor over your hammer bar (or coin bar, etc) in the city screen and the order of multipliers is explained in the game.
 
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Thanks. I'm catching on. I haven't found a good Strat.&Tact. article that explains the formulae...in what order the math. operations take place.

Agreed that it isn't clear

Total production yield is base production yield times production modifiers.

There aren't actually many things that change base production. Mathematics is one of them: the 50% increased yield you get from chops is base hammers. Slavery is (sort of) another - it plays funky games with the costs of things, in ways that are not obvious (see: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193659#CR18 ).

Bureaucracy is a production modifier, that adds with other multipliers (8 hammers / turn + Bureaucracy 50% + forge 25% = 14 hammers, not 15 hammers).

Commerce gets a little wonky, because modified commerce turns into raw research/culture/espionage/wealth, added to those (raw) yields from other sources and gets modified again.

So if you have Bureaucracy, some attached scientists, an academy, and are building wealth...

The raw commerce (palace, cottages, trade routes) gets an (additive) 50% boost from
Bureaucracy, converted to raw research, and then gets a 50% boost from the Academy.

The research from the scientists gets nothing from Bureaucracy (it isn't commerce), but gets a 50% boost from the Academy

The research you are building doesn't get any boost at all from the Academy (!), but it does get a boost from Bureaucracy (!!) because your raw hammers are getting a production bonus.
 

Olson

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I appreciate the replies. I wasn't sure if I was overlooking synergies or if people have been using the word a lot because it sounds technical or sophisticated...much like using 'utilize' when 'use' is usually more useful.
 
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