Are you Politically Correct?
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Narz
keeping it real
Well life is. Biology & physics. Not so simple of course.
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@Lemon Merchant
Respectfully, you're conflating sex and gender as well. Additionally, chromosomal arguments are flawed as XX / XY is a simplistic understanding of that particular subject (that most of us are taught in school, and therefore appropriate for that level but not beyond that).
It's also a classic argument to absurdity, so hopefully red_elk comes back to take you to task on that.
Respectfully, you're conflating sex and gender as well. Additionally, chromosomal arguments are flawed as XX / XY is a simplistic understanding of that particular subject (that most of us are taught in school, and therefore appropriate for that level but not beyond that).
Comparing gender identity to calling yourself a religious head of state proves it's definitely not me understanding English.
It's also a classic argument to absurdity, so hopefully red_elk comes back to take you to task on that.
Narz
keeping it real
I haven't learned much about chromosomes in my adult life. If you have a Y you're always male, right? Some males have two Y's which gives them bigger balls or something & generally more masculine. What's the problem with "chromosomal arguments"?
As a basis of sex? Two reasons. Firstly, human chromosomes don't always pair of that nicely. It's not just XX or XY.
Secondly, your chromosomes are much more than these pairings we often associate with biological sex.
Here's a good Twitter thread that breaks it down:
https://twitter.com/ScienceVet2/status/1035246030500061184?s=19
Secondly, your chromosomes are much more than these pairings we often associate with biological sex.
Here's a good Twitter thread that breaks it down:
https://twitter.com/ScienceVet2/status/1035246030500061184?s=19
Narz
keeping it real
I read through it. How prevalent are the abnormalities he's talking about? As one user said : If a human is born without legs we do not use this as evidence for the claim that humans are not bipedal and that there is a spectrum of “legedness”
No. There are XX males and XY women due to particular other genetic or hormonal anomalies. Then there's mosaicism, where people have both XX and XY cells, and all the conditions where there are extra X or Y chromosomes or too few.
Number of legs isn't a bimodal distribution.
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Akka
Moody old mage.
Once again, it seems that you suddenly lose your ability to notice nuances when these nuances don't suit you.
I never agreed that one should use preferred pronouns (that would be an agreement that someone can basically redefine reality, which is not something I subscribe to), but I agreed that there is a legitimacy to take into account the sensitivities of people on this subject and try to work around them, due to the amount of pain it can cause. I've even provided explicit answers on how I do it, but it seems that the selectiveness also applies to reading.
Because you don't want to as it would prove you wrong ?
Just as an aside : "male" and "female" are not based on if you have an XX or XY genome (that wouldn't work on others species which might completely lack said genes, would it ?). It's based on if you have the organ with the potential ability to fertilize or the organ with the potential ability to be fertilized.
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Which is funny because we literally never examine people's genitals to infer whether they're men or women as we go about our day to day lives. That "biological" definition is almost precisely irrelevant to actual human behaviour or socialisation. If genitals are what matter, we are attempting to use a bunch of imperfect secondary stuff to make guesses about them to determine how to treat people.
Zardnaar
Deity
My personal view is there are two genders arguably 3 (intersex).
A trans man post op is just a man who has mutilated themselves and may or may not be taking hormones.
That being said no reason to treat trans people like crap. If they want to be called miss or whatever it's polite to refer to them as such.
If you've got a penis though and identify as female don't be to surprised if females get upset if you're using their toilets.
I have seen females here in men's bathroom s and no one cared so I suppose it's up to who is in the bathroom at any given time.
Personally I wouldn't run off to the cops or anything as I'm not offended/care enough etc to do anything about it. You gotta go you gotta go.
A trans man post op is just a man who has mutilated themselves and may or may not be taking hormones.
That being said no reason to treat trans people like crap. If they want to be called miss or whatever it's polite to refer to them as such.
If you've got a penis though and identify as female don't be to surprised if females get upset if you're using their toilets.
I have seen females here in men's bathroom s and no one cared so I suppose it's up to who is in the bathroom at any given time.
Personally I wouldn't run off to the cops or anything as I'm not offended/care enough etc to do anything about it. You gotta go you gotta go.
I think confusing sex with gender is the cause for a lot of that line of thinking. They're not the same thing, which (mutability and redundancy of the English language aside) is why they are separate words. Here's a good thread on intersex folk, for anybody who's interested (I'm not aiming this at you Zardnaar, it's a general thread line of thinking to be honest):
https://twitter.com/delaneykingrox/status/995525175255879682
https://twitter.com/delaneykingrox/status/995525175255879682
Argument to absurdity is not a fallacy
This all comes down to the question whether we choose definitions of "man" and "woman" on political correctness grounds, aiming to reduce minorities grievances.
Personally, I think it's better to use separate words for them, such as transmen and transwomen, because IMO distinction between them and biological men/women is important.
Maybe I meant an appeal to an extreme, I always get them confused. Sadly, you were more interested in trying to correct me than call out obviously fallacious logic.Argument to absurdity is not a fallacy
This all comes down to the question whether we choose definitions of "man" and "woman" on political correctness grounds, aiming to reduce minorities grievances.
Personally, I think it's better to use separate words for them, such as transmen and transwomen, because IMO distinction between them and biological men/women is important.
And no, it's not about choosing it on "political correctness grounds", because as I said near the start of the thread, "political correctness" is something invented by conservatives to (effectively) insult (the American) liberal mindset. It rapidly loses effectiveness when you compare it to political spectrums present in other countries, because the American mainstream political chart is basically centre-to-right, with very little mainstream leftist representation (with some notable and mostly recent exceptions). I'm British. My concept of "liberal" is different to yours, and my concept of "conservative" is different to yours. Less than I'd like these days, given the increasing right-wing bent of UK politics, but hey. Still different.
Men and women are men and women. If you insist on calling someone a trans man, you're excluding them from being a "man" and assigning them to some convenient group that you don't then have to associate with. This is a form of exclusion, not inclusion, within society.
And if this thread is any indicator, cis folk don't seem to be happy with being given that label, which would only be fair if for some unprejudiced argument (that so far hasn't been made) we could actually make a case for calling trans folk explicitly trans (I disagree that we should, again, on grounds of exclusion, social ingroups vs. outgroups, simple group psychology basically).
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Sexual reassignment surgery isn't "mutilation".
Senethro
Overlord
Lots of people here swearing that they'll be polite in public but struggling feverishly to claim the wiggle room to be a jerk in the privacy of their own head. I mean, thats fine, thats the best place for it, and thoughts should be private and all.
But then theres this public debate to prove to others that they are somehow "objectively" "correct" in being secret jerks.
Political correctness has sometimes been criticized on this forum as an attempt to impose new words and "control reality" (and that this is bad). Meanwhile the critics are trying to control the reality of trans-people by dictating it to them. I just thought that was an instructive example of projection is all.
But then theres this public debate to prove to others that they are somehow "objectively" "correct" in being secret jerks.
Political correctness has sometimes been criticized on this forum as an attempt to impose new words and "control reality" (and that this is bad). Meanwhile the critics are trying to control the reality of trans-people by dictating it to them. I just thought that was an instructive example of projection is all.
Zardnaar
Deity
Cutting off body parts to me is even if it's skillfully done. Cutting your penis off isn't natural, I'm somewhat sympathetic to intersex people who decide to have surgery later in life.
I'll do my best to be nice to them, but conceptually it's very foreign and alien thought process to do that.
Fairly liberal on most things, gay marriage sure, socialist economics fine. Legalize pot knock yourself out.
It's not something that effects my everyday life though so for the most part don't care that much one way or another. I don't see the point of being cruel to anyone.
May also be a bit of uncanny valley effect.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
I have been assaulted for using the bathroom of my assigned gender at birth, as well as having been harrassed for using the bathroom of my gender i am transitioning to.
It's actually very dangerous situation for a transperson to navigate and i honestly think that cispeople in general just don't get how dangerous and frightening it is.
Imagine for a second, a MTF, presenting extremely femme (dress, skirt, make-up etc) walking into a male bathroom because she is forced too by law, there is a high chance, if someone is in that bathroom, that she isn't going to walk out unscathed, verbally or physically.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
When you couch it in terms of 'mutilation" then you are using the same words as people who are virurently anti-trans use, i'm talking the "these mentally ill people with a fetish who mutilate themselves" rhetoric that i often see bandied about off and online.
Maybe, if you want to avoid being seen as anti-trans, you should avoid using such words and just to let you know, "mutilate" is cruel and has negative connotations, regardless of your intent.
You can also describe nearly any surgical procedure on the planet in gruesome terms for shock value if you set your mind to it. Christ, the things they did crunching up, slicing, shaving, moving, severing, replacing and resetting the cartilage, muscle and bone my wife's head to fix her deviated septum can easily be spun as mutilation, destruction, torture, etc. The damage they did, the gore, the mess, the weeks of leakage, the heavy painkillers... just to help her breathe a bit better and get less sinus infections!
Choosing to get emotive and graphic in this one specific case is um, bad not good.
Choosing to get emotive and graphic in this one specific case is um, bad not good.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
It's part of the reason why i can't really be bothered with the attempts in this thread to "logically' or "objectively" defend transphobia in this thread.
It's punching down on an already marginalised group in society and i genuinely believe that they (cispeople, white males, the "norm", but not all) feel threatened by any attempt to equalize the playing field in terms of language, norms and behaviour. They think (even if they won't come out and say it) that treating transpeople with a basic level of dignity and humanity comes at their expense and is a threat to them, hell this applies to ALL minorities and even women, when it comes to treating them as equals or being respectful. It's why there is such a big pushback, such a defensiveness on their part, such an eagerness to be petty over matters that barely impact upon them, why they have this victim mentality and feel they are "losing the culture war".
The reality isn't that they are losing power, but that society is slowly unstacking the priviledges and social power they assumed were always there's and it's going to continue to equalize and they're just going to have to deal with that.
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