Are you Politically Correct?

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Loathe to open this can of worms again, but... you don't have to actually agree that someone is a woman in order to address them as such. As far as I can see, it's the refusal to do the latter that is being labelled as rude/impolite/disrespectful.
 
Self-definition has limits, and the disagreement is about where those limits are. Trying to assimilate said disagreement with violating rights is precisely the thing I point.

I don't consider "PC" the concerns that actually affects a person's life, but PC stems from the abuse of the idea that everyone should adapt to one's sensitivities - taking them into account is the basis of civility, but "taking into account" doesn't mean "agreeing".
Sometimes it's warranted, sometimes not, and PC is when it's not legitimate but still required, hence the irritation (notice that I don't see either "don't use deadname" or "don't misgender me" as being PC, just for the record).
And sometimes there is situations where there is irreconcilable differences and I see the validity in everyone's viewpoints without either considering some are jerks or the others are in PC madness. This is the essence of dilemma.

I don't see how facts can be insulting. As you say, the delivery can, but that's not the fact itself. Using a fact to insult is certainly possible, but that's, again, about intent, not fact. I see no reason to ignore, dismiss or badmouth facts here.

I don't argue otherwise.

But here you go again, "being forced to treat someone with respect", conflating agreement with a specific viewpoint with moral judgement. Those aren't the same, and that's (yet again) my point. Respect is in the intent, and as I said above, while it should obviously take into account the sensitivities of a person, it doesn't imply you have to agree with them.
Your objection to my statement was about being made to feel bad for not respecting someone's pronouns. I'm not conflating anything, there was a specific scenario which I was elaborating on to another poster, and you chimed in with a reference to your previous post. Your previous post was basically this:
The problem with such reasoning is that it tries to merge the very idea of not sharing your opinion on what is gender with an insult and an intent to harm and basically being a jerk.
To which I said there are no opinions on gender (with caveats, and a bunch of other stuff). You're trying very hard to frame this as a difference in opinion when deciding on how much to respect other peoples' livelihoods. You do not have to agree personally with the concept, to respect someone's pronouns. If you're respecting somebody's pronouns, you're at least doing that, and you won't see people complaining about it. Similar to what Cloud_Strife was saying about how the reasoning is actually inconsequential, it's the fact of doing someone harm by not respecting their pronouns is what's important.

If you accept these consequences, then whatever moral choices you make are on you. As are other peoples' judgement. If you do something and get judged for it, that's on you. Not necessarily on anyone else, as much as opponents of "political correctness" like to imagine. The whole thing about political correctness is that the only examples people can muster are either incredibly isolated real-world examples, or mostly theoretical "well I don't want to be forced at gunpoint to respect someone's silly pronouns".

As for your bit about facts, maybe there's a language barrier here. I have no idea where you're from. But people can also find facts insulting as per the literal example I used. They can also be used as insults, or in support of insults. To open another can of worms, calling someone fat can be a factual descriptor. But in of itself it could be demoralising and not very supportive, depending on your relationship with the person in question. Facts are not inviolate. They are not sacred. If "facts" are used primarily to badmouth people (for example, "there are only two genders, fact", which is wrong, but aside from the point for a moment), then yes, people can criticise the use of those facts. Which is no different from criticising the fact itself (especially if the fact is relying on outdated or misinformed data, which anti-LGBTQ evangelists often rely on for their assumptions around gender).

To finish, I would say there are no limits on self-definition. Unless you can prove they're trolling you for a reaction (see: attack helicopter memes, generally used as an anti-trans or self-IDing slur), the sky is literally the limit. I could legally change my name tomorrow and people would have to respect that. If your assumption is that people are being silly or otherwise not serious about their own identity, that's your assumption. They could be being completely serious, and your presumption of them being beyond your "limit" is also entirely on you.
 
Your objection to my statement was about being made to feel bad for not respecting someone's pronouns.
No. My objection is about "passing moral judgement", not "made to feel bad".
To which I said there are no opinions on gender (with caveats, and a bunch of other stuff).
Yeah, you said it. Care to support it ? Because the fact that there is so much debate around it tend to show the opposite.
You're trying very hard to frame this as a difference in opinion when deciding on how much to respect other peoples' livelihoods.

You do not have to agree personally with the concept, to respect someone's pronouns. If you're respecting somebody's pronouns, you're at least doing that, and you won't see people complaining about it. Similar to what Cloud_Strife was saying about how the reasoning is actually inconsequential, it's the fact of doing someone harm by not respecting their pronouns is what's important.
Actually there is another way, and it's about just not using gendered pronouns.
If you accept these consequences, then whatever moral choices you make are on you. As are other peoples' judgement. If you do something and get judged for it, that's on you. Not necessarily on anyone else, as much as opponents of "political correctness" like to imagine.
So if someone is making a coming out in a conservative family and is judged negatively, that's on them ?
(not my opinion, that's your own reasoning)
As for your bit about facts, maybe there's a language barrier here. I have no idea where you're from. But people can also find facts insulting as per the literal example I used. They can also be used as insults, or in support of insults.
They can be used as insult, yes, but they aren't insults, and someone has no reason to "find them insulting" (the very notion is nonsensical, even if you're having a height complex, you can dislike your size but the numbers aren't trying to make you feel bad).
To open another can of worms, calling someone fat can be a factual descriptor. But in of itself it could be demoralising and not very supportive, depending on your relationship with the person in question. Facts are not inviolate. They are not sacred. If "facts" are used primarily to badmouth people (for example, "there are only two genders, fact", which is wrong, but aside from the point for a moment), then yes, people can criticise the use of those facts. Which is no different from criticising the fact itself (especially if the fact is relying on outdated or misinformed data, which anti-LGBTQ evangelists often rely on for their assumptions around gender).
A fact relying on misinformed data is not a fact, you know ? A fact is supposed to reflect reality, so if it's wrong, it's an error, not a fact. And yeah a fact can be demoralizing, but that doesn't change their existence, so I don't really get your point here. That we should ignore them if they displease us ?
To finish, I would say there are no limits on self-definition.
Of course there is, duh. If I claim I'm 2m tall, I'm factually wrong, I'm still 1,75 m tall, not 2 m. Here you go, my self-definition has at least one limit, so your statement is false and it means that you can't assume that self-definition is true by default.


Edit : damn, it ended up as a sliced-up mess... Apologies for that, next time I'll try to keep to the main points.
 
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Of course there is, duh. If I claim I'm 2m tall, I'm factually wrong, I'm still 1,75 m tall, not 2 m. Here you go, my self-definition has at least one limit, so your statement is false and it means that you can't assume that self-definition is true by default.
Yes, you would be factually wrong...and what business of anyone else's would that be? Sure, if you are trying to get a tryout with an NBA team that is going to matter, but how tall you think you are makes not one whit of difference to me...just like someone else's gender identity makes no difference to me. If you want to be referred to as Mademoiselle Akka, that's what I'll call you because why not?
 
@Akka

You're taking my examples and removing the context; my examples are intended for their stated context. The context of not respecting someone's pronouns is different to being judged by presumably homophobic relatives for coming out. The people being insensitive in each scenario is different.

That's what I don't think you're getting. I can't guess at your intent, so I won't. But these benign examples of height, and so on . . . they're not relevant here. Context matters. I don't even know what you're getting at with moral judgement not being the same as "being made to feel bad". I think that point has been lost between us somewhere.

Calling someone fat by itself has more ramifications than calling someone tall. Because one is historically used as a slur and has become inescapably intertwined with that usage. The other has not.

Also, "fat" is a very loaded phrase that's been subject to a lot of revision over the years. 2 metres tall is an accepted standard unit of measurement that has remained the same. I don't want to get into fatness as a topic, I'm using it as something similar to pronouns - where the noun, or factual adjective, has been taken over by using it to disrespect others.
 
Yes, you would be factually wrong...and what business of anyone else's would that be? Sure, if you are trying to get a tryout with an NBA team that is going to matter, but how tall you think you are makes not one whit of difference to me...just like someone else's gender identity makes no difference to me. If you want to be referred to as Mademoiselle Akka, that's what I'll call you because why not?

Also a lot of dudes lie about height constantly? To the point that dating app heights are a cliche joke?
 
Also a lot of dudes lie about height constantly? To the point that dating app heights are a cliche joke?

Really? I never knew that. Of course I have not clue one why anyone would bother lying on a dating app. I want to date someone who is interested in me, not someone who is interested in some misrepresentation of me.
 
They can be used as insult, yes, but they aren't insults, and someone has no reason to "find them insulting" (the very notion is nonsensical, even if you're having a height complex, you can dislike your size but the numbers aren't trying to make you feel bad).

This gets back to what Gorbles is saying about context. Bare facts can absolutely be both intended as insults and perceived as insults even when they aren't intended that way.

And incidentally, if someone is offended, that in itself creates a "fact" - their emotional reaction is a part of reality - and your feeling that someone is wrong to take offense won't change the fact that they have. Facts don't care about your feelings, after all.
 
Dating apps are used for casual sex, not relationships, @Timsup2nothin.

Yeah. I want to date someone who is interested in having casual sex with me, not someone who is interested in having casual sex with some misrepresentation of me. Is the idea "when she comes 'round she's going to be so anxious to have sex that she'll settle for me rather than take the time to look for what she wants"?
 
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Yeah. I want to date someone who is interested in having casual sex with me, not someone who is interested in having casual sex with some misrepresentation of me. Is the idea "when she comes 'round she's going to be so anxious to have sex that she'll settle for me rather than take the time to look for what she wants"?
I think the lying is driven by extreme selectivity of women on dating apps. It's pretty common for women on these apps just being upfront and saying they won't swipe right on anyone less than 6ft tall, for example.

This study was conducted to quantify the Tinder socio-economic prospects for males based on the percentage of females that will “like” them. Female Tinder usage data was collected and statistically analyzed to determine the inequality in the Tinder economy. It was determined that the bottom 80% of men (in terms of attractiveness) are competing for the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men. The Gini coefficient for the Tinder economy based on “like” percentages was calculated to be 0.58. This means that the Tinder economy has more inequality than 95.1% of all the world’s national economies. In addition, it was determined that a man of average attractiveness would be “liked” by approximately 0.87% (1 in 115) of women on Tinder.
https://medium.com/@worstonlinedate...ably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a

I don't know how good this study is though.
 
Well, yeah, that too. I've been with someone I met through "a dating app" for fifteen years.

I spent a period of a little more than a year trying desperately to use them for casual sex and found enormous numbers of women specifying "no hookups" (ie no casual sex) on their profiles, so....
 
Not really true at all. Different people use 'em for different things.
Well, yeah, that too. I didn't mean everyone does, but if you're just trying to hookup, an app is easier than a bar to use.
Yeah. I want to date someone who is interested in having casual sex with me, not someone who is interested in having casual sex with some misrepresentation of me. Is the idea "when she comes 'round she's going to be so anxious to have sex that she'll settle for me rather than take the time to look for what she wants"?
I think it's a "foot in the door" type tactic. If I can get through a filter, and get her to get a drink with me, and I know we're both trying to get laid, the chances of her settling for me are pretty good.
 
I didn't mean everyone does, but if you're just trying to hookup, an app is easier than a bar to use.

This is the trap, though, because while it's easier to swipe on your phone than go to a bar, if you're of "average" attractiveness you will need to swipe, on average, 114 times to get a match (and God only knows how many matches you'll need to actually meet up with someone).
 
I think the lying is driven by extreme selectivity of women on dating apps. It's pretty common for women on these apps just being upfront and saying they won't swipe right on anyone less than 6ft tall, for example.

The "selectivity of women on dating apps" isn't any different from the selectivity of women overall though, so what is the point of gaming the app? If she isn't going to "swipe right" on me, great...that saves me the time of actually meeting her.
 
The "selectivity of women on dating apps" isn't any different from the selectivity of women overall though, so what is the point of gaming the app? If she isn't going to "swipe right" on me, great...that saves me the time of actually meeting her.
I guess low risk, high potential payoff?
 
Sarah Silverman got fired as she was about to start acting in a new movie because the producers found a skit she did over a decade ago where she wore blackface. The whole point of the joke was how offensive black face is, in other words it was a joke about racism and not a racist joke.
 
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