Armageddon.

[skallben]

So it happened. Armageddon. Four Horsemen and Avatar of Wrath. Hyborem is also in and so are the Mercurians. Allthough the two are on different continents.

Now my whole continent is getting wasted by Barbarians. What do I do? I'm playing Cassiel and all but two Adventurers are dead. I'm getting Life magic and trying to get archers to defend my lands but what then...I really have my doubts Ill be able to hold back Avatar of Wrath. Help

 

[TravellingHat]

Ouch! The only time I've actually had the world get that bad I was playing the Sheaim, and it was mostly my doing, mwahaha!

Not sure what to suggest. As the Grigori you don't have much that can bring down the AC. You could try destroying all cities with the Ashem Veil, starting with Hyborem and the Infernal lands. Given suitable support, this would probably be the best use of your remaining heroes. You'll also need a veritible fire brigade of life adepts out cleansing all the hell terrain.

Meanwhile the avatars are going to be causing trouble. In my Sheaim game, the Avatar of Wrath ate Abashi the Black Dragon for breakfast, so using your last heroes on them may be a worthless sacrifice. You might just have to suffer them and roll with punches.

If it wasn't for the fact Cassiel is agnostic, I'd recommed praying!

 

[sivlar]

It does seem a bit harsh right now when that guy shows up. I am running a game with clan of embers, and luckily the barbarians don't touch me since I am still neutral with them. I think that is about the only thing that has saved me from his massive army.

When the avatar spawned I had only 4 units left and most my cities were undefended....but also all my neighbors that I was at war with were in the same boat

I ran a sheaim and calibim game before and had him show up, both of those games went downhill fast as the avatar with his 200 unit zerg just rolled over my whole empire.

 

[jprc]

I'd recommed praying!

... and whoever/whatever you want!
Because it seems that you are the hamburger, they are the customer.

I was yesterday in your case. And ... surprise!! I died...

Today I start a game with plenty of islands, in the hope that these barbarian/ugly/evils will be trapped on one of them when they will be spawned (and they will...) and the time Armageddon comes, I use Tsunami on the islands!!!

 

[SwordofStriker]

Just went through Armegeddon on my own game and it was crazy. I lost at least half of my total army, and to add insult to injury it appeared that the Avatar of Wrath and all his cronies popped in my borders. Fortunately I was Hyborem and the Avatar of Wrath was more interested in my Amurite neighbors, but I still had to fight off the hordes. Most aggravating was having to kill my own units that joined him, and not being able to recapture all the manes and workers that were lost.

Now, all the barbs are dead and the Avatar of Wrath is MIA.

 

[3141592]

Turtle into the richest part of your empire you can. Don't attack with your adventurers and try to keep them in cities. All you need to do is survive, with one city or ten it doesn't matter. After the barbarian leaders are killed the rest will fall and you can rise your empire from the ashes, with nearly every other civ dead. Don't bother trying to decrease the AC, it's already long gone.

Also, what year is it and what game speed?

 

[skallben]

Thanks for the replies.

Yeah, it seems all other empires have fallen and Im soon on schedule. Hopefully Ill be able to get out a few Medics.

Game speed is normal and it is turn 343. I just got Shadows and Grigori Medics. My current plan is to get some Archer units with City Garrison and pick off the Zombies with Shadows. Now my only (like that is small ) issue is to be able to combat the Horsemen and Avatar himself. There is alot of Unholy damage, is there a way to counter it?
I was thinking of the Grigory tier 3 "Divine" units whom are magic immune just like those bastards. Allthough I might not be able to get to research them yet

Actually, I think I might just be eaten alive by undead. Advice is still welcome though as my first SP-game is looking the same. I only got Swordsmen and Sorcerers and Hyborem is allready in, Blight is next.

Actually, the more I think of it - the Horsemen seem worse than Avatar. Him I can Fireball and Damage Undead. Them I just have to combat.

 

[Anathema]

I brought about armageddon once as Ashen Veil/Calabim, and fair enough, the Avatar and his friends landed on top of my capital.. funny thing is, Profanes with entropy III can actually banish the Avatar (and a good number of his friends). Not sure if that's a bug or if it's intentional for the evil religion to beat the avatar so easily.. anyway if you're not AV, best bet is lots of archers/any other good defensive unit, the avatar can kill himself attacking a few good city defenders.

 

[Scott Alexander]

I just played a game as the Sheaim so I could finally see all the events up to AC100 (usually I manage to keep the AC pretty under control).

It was kind of disappointing. The Blight's a good idea but after the first time it just becomes a predictable annoyance. The Horsemen and Avatar were pretty cool but weren't nearby. I got one message about cracks appearing in the earth itself, but I didn't see any.

But the really anticlimactic part was the Apocalypse itself. My cities lost some population, a lot of units disappeared (but none of the important heroes)...and then everyone built new units, the cities grew back in a couple of turns, and everyone got on with their lives. If there hadn't been the extremely well-written text message accompanying it, I might've missed it between the usual unit/pop deaths my rather overzealous devotion to the Veil was causing by that point. Come on. No blood raining from the skies and demons feasting on the blood of the righteous and dead rising from their graves and the like?

 

[BeefontheBone]

I'm half expecting to see AC events get a bit more granular with the BtS events system - things like Blight requiring a minimum AC to trigger but not being guaranteed at 40, and so on. The dead rising could be fun too - if the event triggers, a bunch of barbarian zombies, skeletons and other undead appear across the world. Drown could pop up on lake tiles. Would that feel nicely apocalyptic to you? It's true tht they can be a little underwhelming at present, although an early horseman or the avatar will be very significant if they pop near you

 

[thomas.berubeg]

i've always wanted a zombie uprising in FFH2... i think the trouble was that to make the zombies good, they would have to attack barbarian units too, and that require putting in a nwe civilization for the zombies, and there was a limited amount of civs one could have in a game.

i really would love to see an infection mechanism, with units becoming infected and turning zombie, and cities loosing some of thier population and spawning zombie units to ravage the country side.

 

[skallben]

It was kind of disappointing. The Blight's a good idea but after the first time it just becomes a predictable annoyance. The Horsemen and Avatar were pretty cool but weren't nearby. I got one message about cracks appearing in the earth itself, but I didn't see any.

You should see my game then, Avatar and Horsemen completely steamrolled five Civs on my continent. Two thirds of my continent are barbarian territory with Hell terrain and diseased corpses running about. Allthough I must admit I have not seen a game come close to this a second time yet. I want to continue this game but my brother is sceptical (LAN game), Ill get back here if I get any updates.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

It really depends on when the Avatar and Apocalypse spawn, a lot more than where. Because even if it spawns into the middle of your empire, remember you can use roads but the barbarians can't. The most you'll lose is your capital, and barbarians won't usually raze the city anyway. Then when you recapture it, all the wonders are still there. Really, no high-strength unit that a large contingent of mithril-maceman or aquebasers can't handle.

The bottom line is, it's still Civ4, and good, solid gameplay means you can handle any scripted threats easily.

That's fine though, the scripted events should not be devastating. However, what I really don't like about Armageddon is the way evil civs don't seem to gain more or lose out less than good civs when armageddon does come along.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Evil civs should be allowed a world ritual to make peace with the barbarians when the AC if 70. All the evil civs will race for it but the rest will fall in a beautiful darwanian survival of the fittest run.

 

[Khai]

Thats a beautiful idea...

 

[Inkling]

i was thinking on ways to reward evil civs for a high AC, i was going to ressurect the old high AC thread, but its more about a victory condition, and i don't think thats really what is needed. This thread appears to be going more in my direction, so rather than start a new one...
ofcourse, i got nothing that sounds good. still i'll throw it out there in case someone else is inspired

i figure any benefit to a high AC should atleast require the presence of the AV religeon. if the temple is not required, then the temples presence should amplify/boost the effect. And the AV religeon must be the state religeon.
The point being, a benefit from a high AC shouldn't be just about being evil, but being the right kind of evil.
personally, i think evil should occassionally be on the side of good for its own, evil reasons.

one thought was to represent the fear and dread in populations for a high AC by having an unhappiness penalty to all non AV civs. like there aren't enough penalties already for a high AC. the second thought was a happiness boost for AV civs, but with hell terrain, its unlikely you will be able to use this bonus unless maybe to counter act war weariness. a third thought for the same mechanic, is a penalty where the AV is present but not the state religeon, but all this does is encourage inquisitions, and its still a penalty.

another thought was a corporation-esque bonus to AV civs based on the number of hell terrain resources available, but then it isn't a high AC bonus, but a hell terrain bonus.

and a last thought was a planar gate-esque bonus, but for city production, so actually more like a dwarven vault. a bonus to either city productivity or just city production based on the current AC level

The only other suggestion i have is to remove the tendency for civs to declare war on eachother at higher AC levels, maybe its just that the mechanics aren't working properly, but you figure these are supposed to be intellegent leaders, they shouldn't be actively bringing about the end of the world if they aren't AV/evil, and yet thats basically what happens in that scenario. that and it feels a little contrived.
atleast change it so its not a fight between good and evil, but good and those facilitating armageddon, or even those facilitating armeggedon, and those who aren't, be they good or evil.

just throwing it out there.

 

[KillerClowns]

I like the idea of AC affecting happiness. I can imagine that even in the most Ordered of Elohim citadels, things would just feel wrong. Everyone's tempers would be shortened, the days would grow darker, et cetera. A happiness modifier (bonus for AV, loss for others) would be appropriate to represent this; people get crabby if they reckon tomorrow could be their final day and there is nothing they can do about it. Unless they believe that the Apocalypse will bring them demonic rewards, of course.

It seems perfectly appropriate that the world start to divide on idealogical grounds. A good leader who might, in less dire times, be all for allying with an evil neighbor for the good of his people might not think as clearly when demons whisper in his dreams. Instead, he'll attack even his neutral neighbors for perceived complacency, never mind what happens to those who are evil. Whether they're benefiting from, ignoring, or actively fighting the forces of Hell might not be taken into consideration. It seems fitting, then, that the world would start to line up on idealogical points, and that those who seek to remain neutral or serve an evil other then Hell would have to:
a. Choose a side and act the part. Adopt the Order and stop kicking puppies, or embrace the power of Hell and start offering puppies as blood sacrifices. When it's about Heaven and Hell, you can't have the in-between people who only kick puppies but aren't willing to go all the way.
b. Create an army and/or alliance to challenge Heaven and Hell alike. (I can see Cassiel at the center of such an alliance...) After all, people can't force you to take sides if you're the biggest, baddest, guy around.

Oh, and I also love the barbarian-alliance ritual idea.

 

[Sureshot]

id like it if rather than random units dying and joining the barbarians, that instead after the AC reaches a certain amount, then any living unit that dies joins the barbarian side and gains the undead promotion.

completely random unit loss is just a pain

 

[Inkling]

...

It seems perfectly appropriate that the world start to divide on idealogical grounds. A good leader who might, in less dire times, be all for allying with an evil neighbor for the good of his people might not think as clearly when demons whisper in his dreams. Instead, he'll attack even his neutral neighbors for perceived complacency, never mind what happens to those who are evil. Whether they're benefiting from, ignoring, or actively fighting the forces of Hell might not be taken into consideration. It seems fitting, then, that the world would start to line up on idealogical points, and that those who seek to remain neutral or serve an evil other then Hell would have to:
a. Choose a side and act the part. Adopt the Order and stop kicking puppies, or embrace the power of Hell and start offering puppies as blood sacrifices. When it's about Heaven and Hell, you can't have the in-between people who only kick puppies but aren't willing to go all the way.
b. Create an army and/or alliance to challenge Heaven and Hell alike. (I can see Cassiel at the center of such an alliance...) After all, people can't force you to take sides if you're the biggest, baddest, guy around.

Oh, and I also love the barbarian-alliance ritual idea.

The problem, in my experience, is that it seems to be war for wars sake, yes divided somewhat along idealogical grounds, but without a goal. These are suppose to be intellegent leaders, if they are fighting to stop or bring about the apocolypse, then their actions should be appropriate to that goal. For evil its largely irrelevant, just about everything they do will contribute to the AC, but for good to just willy nilly declare war is kinda silly since often it still serves to raise the AC, which is ofcourse counter productive.
If they were behaving as you just described i'd be happier, atlhough while you might go after the complacent, you are gonna hit the complicit first, and Like i said, the mechanics just might not be all in or functioning correctly, and this is only my experience. But right now its kinda a point of no return thing. The scales tip and its pot luck as to whether good actually furthers its own cause.

 

[Calavente]

I'll just give my thoughts, mostly inspired from what's up there :

state of war
maybe at 90AC or 80AC, all civ (not AV) are declaring peace. all civ AV declare war to every other civ (including AV). if an AV civ score is least than 1/3 of the best AV civ's score it becomes its vassal.

at 95 or 90AC [(100+upper number)/2], war and peace are forced and cannot be changed until AC gets lower than 95-90.

dying units
I like the Idea that dying unit goes to barbs after a certain AC. but maybe more like :
- -50% city pop. (-40%city pop for AV civ)
-50% chance for living units to go barb at this level of AC (only 1 time per game, even if AC goes up and down)
-less chance for unique units-heroes and other unique units, less chance for units with religion promo (less chance of being compelled by hell's summons) (units with blood of phoenix promo don't go barb, they lose immortal promo and stay in civ ==> no point that barbs getting 8 immortals without any capital and most horrible having 8 barb immortals if barbs have a capital)
-no risk for AV units or prophecy marked units ==> bonus for the civ that follows those path,
-all units not barb, not undead, not demon, not angel gets -50% health and disease promo : penality for being outside a holy ground / sanctuary during rains of fire, toxic gaz and unhloy magic. (so this harms even golems and mechanical units)

-after that : every living unit [not barb, not good (give angel at death) /not evil (give manes at death), not undead] or neutral pop point razed gives the same unit or a worker/settler to barbarian, with undead promo. units appears in nearest barb city or closest barb hero.
-each living (non hero/unique, non AV, non prophecy mark) unit has 1% chance going barb if AC > 95
-AC = 100 : each new action that raise the AC after AC =100 gives a settler or a random demon to barbs for each AC point thus obtained

bonus for AV civs going for high AC
-AV and prophecy mark units are not going barb due to AC rise.
-after a certain AC (ex 90) : if AV is main state religion, AV temple allows a random appearance of an 'hellish imp' max 1 per 3 AV city, it is in fact a worker type unit allowing to put improved improvements on hell terrain. unit die and hell improvements distroyed if AC goes under 80
-if AV : modifier on science and gold : AC modifier for gold/science = AC/4

Conclusions
incentives for going AC and AV :
-less unit loss that neighbours : become more powerful, more strengh to resist the barb hordes
-if high AC: possibility of gaining a vassal, chance of having workers to improve hell terrain and relish in it
-unit loss to barbs is less important at first, but barbs always get new units and people at peace with barb will want to keep high AC to improve there barb buddy.
-more science/gold if AC is high

High AC is more mean and polarize the civ behaviour :
-everybody goes at war against AV civ
-peace between every civ that doesn't want "hell on earth", either good, neutral or evil.
-barbs are in the end more powerful than otherwise.

I will ask but one thing to balance AV :

make sacrifice the weak give -1F for farms... each pop only eats 1 so it sould not harm the growth a lot, but as it is sacrifice the weak seems a good/best proposition even for good oriented civ because of the HUGE growth enabled. doing this may reduce the profitability of going AV to balance it with the fact that AV civ are the only one profiting from high AC.