Armies of Asia

Wow, never dared to hope seeing you return to Civ4 modding, this is great news. I'm also very excited that you have decided to focus on Asia because that's exactly where I feel my mod is lacking in the respect of accurate representation. Looking forward to include your art.

I'm like you, I almost never play anymore, but modding has become my favourite hobby. The research process as much as the creative one.
Sounds familiar :)
 
This reminds me of a question I've had for a wile. Now are Indonesia and Malaysia interchangeable and could be depicted as one civilization in a mod per say, or should they be separate? I suppose it could go either way.

Could go either way, depending on the period you're representing and how you define what a civilization is. Up until the Majapahit empire I'd say Srivijaya and Java were definitely separate civs, but from then on there's significant blending of territory, culture and politics, and a single civ makes more sense. I've gone with a single Indonesian civ in my mod, but now that Bakuel's made all these wonderful units I'm sorely tempted to split it into two.

There is a difference between Malaysia and Indonesia and, while related, they should not be used interchangeably. I would strongly advice against it. The difference between these two can be compared to the difference between Britain and England.

The name Indonesia is similar to the name British or Britain. It can refer to the modern nation of the United Kingdom, but it can also just refer to the island of Britain in general and includes both Scotland, Wales, and England. Indonesia is similar, it can refer to either the modern nation or just to the islands and the people in it. The Indonesia archipelago is the home to Javanese, Malay, Bugis, Balinese, and thousands of other ethnic groups. The modern nation of Indonesia has a strong multi-ethnic character, probably one of, if not, the most diverse nation in the world.

The name Malaysia, on the other hand, is like naming a civ England. It has a strong ethnic flavor. Malaysia is a modern nation which is primarily composed of Malay people (plus Chinese and Indian minorities). Just like you probably would want to avoid having very Scottish leaders in your English civ (like William Wallace), you would not want to have Javanese or Bugis leaders and units in your Malaysia civ. While the South-East Asia archipelago was once called the Malay Archipelago, this name has fallen out of favor because of it's inaccuracy. I would avoid calling a pan-south east asian archipelago civ Malaysia. Most Javanese, Balinese and so on do not like being referred to as Malays. It's like calling a French person English or calling a Korean person Chinese. They are certainly related historically, with centuries of culture exchange, but they still have distinct cultures identities.

TL;DR version: Malaysia is a name that has a strong ethnic flavor, a Malaysia civ would be primarily about Malay people. Indonesia is more generic. It is both the name of a modern multi-ethnic nation and a generic name for the South-East Asian archipelago.



I'll be using selections from that set for Burma. Inaccurate, but looks great. Will you be making Mon/Burmese/Thai units as part of this project?

I will be making Burmese, Thai and Khmer units. The Burmese pack will probably include a few Mon units like the Java pack includes a few Balinese units. But the Mon won't be getting their own pack.


Wow, never dared to hope seeing you return to Civ4 modding, this is great news. I'm also very excited that you have decided to focus on Asia because that's exactly where I feel my mod is lacking in the respect of accurate representation. Looking forward to include your art.

Thanks! Glad you'll be including the units in your mod!
 
That would probably be the best way to do it.

An alternative way is to make an Indonesian and a Malaysia civ and mirror the modern nations. Indonesia can just focus on Javanese material, while Malaysia would focus on Malay culture and kingdoms. So Malaysia will include kingdoms like Srivijaya and Malacca. While Indonesia would be Mataram, Majapahit, Banten .etc. There would be a little overlap as Indonesia has Malay people living in it, but it wouldn't be too much.

The most important part is just to make sure if you name your civ after a single ethnicity or culture, like Malay or Javanese, that you focus all your flavor and information on them and not mix and match the different cultures.
 
I definitely think I can smell an Indonesian split incoming in my mod. I think I will use your second method Bakuel.

It would look like this:

Malaysia: Srivijaya and Malacca, modern Malaysia(and Singapore?)

Indonesia: Mataram, Majapahit, Banten, modern nation of Indonesia.
 
Majapahitball (and also an Indonesian) thanks you for creating these unit pack. I was about to spread this good news in DoC subforum before I realized Leoreth himself has posted here.

Regarding Indonesian civilization,

I agree to Bakuel. You should totally split it into two different civilization, Malay civilization and Javanese civilization. Indonesia is a modern term encompassing the archipelago that was controlled by Dutch and Malaysia too, by England. It (was) is not a single civilization but a colonial territory.

The civilization in this archipelago are Malay (Srivijaya, Dharmmacraya, Melayu, Jambi, Malacca, Johor etc), Javanese (Medang Kamulan / Mataram, Kalingga, Singhosari, Majapahit, Demak, Mataram [sultanate] etc), Sundanese (Salakanagara, Tarumanegara, Padjajaran), Buginese (Luwuk, Gowa Tallo Sultanate, Makassar), Batak, Balinese,Acehnese, Moluccans, Banjarese, and Papuan. Each have different cultures, pantheon, art, etc and distinct from each other. There are some other tribes/civilization of course but too small to worth mentioning.

In Civilization scope, the most feasible civilization from Indonesia to ever be represented are Malay civilization, Javanese civilization, Aceh/Bugis/Mollucan civilization (representin Indonesian early Islamic era) and Indonesian civilization (the modern, united Indonesia where cultures from each civilization are mixed). I think representing modern Malaysia nation with Malay civilization is enough.
 
It is awesome to see someone from that region chime in BenZL43, thankyou. I figured Indonesia was a foreign term, sort of like "Indochina".

Now in Civ terms what would be the best way of doing Malay and Java in terms of Unique units. Some mods use a trident wielding martial artist as a UU for what is basically Java.
 
Majapahitball (and also an Indonesian) thanks you for creating these unit pack. I was about to spread this good news in DoC subforum before I realized Leoreth himself has posted here.

Thanks for the kind words! And I'm really glad you like the units! It's good to hear approval from someone from Java.


It is awesome to see someone from that region chime in BenZL43, thankyou. I figured Indonesia was a foreign term, sort of like "Indochina".

Now in Civ terms what would be the best way of doing Malay and Java in terms of Unique units. Some mods use a trident wielding martial artist as a UU for what is basically Java.

Some quick UU ideas for Java are:

A Majapahit Ship to represent the Majapahit fleet. It could be some ancient/medieval transport ship replacement but strong or able to carry more units.

An Amok Fighter, basically a berserker. Unlike the later amok fighters in the Moro-American conflict, who were suicide knife guys, amok fighters in Java engaged in open warfare during the early Islamic period. The Portuguese and Dutch both record their ferocity and braver in battle, describing them as "knights".

A Silat Warrior with a keris. The trident guy a lot of mods use is supposed to be this unit. The keris is far more distinctive of a weapon then the trident. I made that old unit as a request. I have no idea why it's a guy using a trident instead of a keris or sword or spear. I have never even seen any pictures of tridents from the archipelago, they probably exist, but it's an odd choice. It's like instead of giving your Samurai a katana, polearm or bow, you gave him a club. (Alternatively, Malays could get a Silat Warrior)

The Wirobrojo Brigade. The famous red pepper warriors of Yogyakarta. I haven't posted this model yet though.

For Malaysia:

An Orang Laut/Srivijaya Raider. Srivijaya was infamous for controlling the straits of Malacca and attacking any ships who would not pay tribute. They relied on the Orang Laut to help patrol and attack passing merchants. Also Srivijaya was famous for it's raids into the surrounding lands during it's early years. It could be either a trireme replacement or something like an axeman with amphibious.
 
Thankyou Bakuel. I think I have a better idea of what to do for these civs unit-wise. The hard part, is a list of cities, and finding leaders for both civs(I know and have three but its simply the matter of deciding who goes where, not too difficult though come to think of it).

I've seen the Candi used for Indonesia civs, would this appropriate for both Java and Malay or are there other distinctive buildings from this area I should consider?
 
Since I studied mainly military history for these packs I can't think of many good unique buildings off the top of my head.

Candi is a good building for Java. The Javanese are the great temple builders of the archipelago, Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula (the homelands of the Malay people) have a few temples but they aren't as grand. Java could also have a commerce or spice trade building.

Malaysia could also have a spice market, too. If you choose the Candi for Indonesia/Java I would go with a unique harbor or some other marine or commerce building for Malaysia. The Malay civs were famous for their control of the straits and setting up tariffs. Perhaps a harbor that becomes more powerful with luxury resources like Spice, Silk, Ivory.etc? Without any it just has an extra 10% to commerce. With each resource the commerce bonus could increase by % or something. Really, I'm just throwing ideas out there. Balance is different in each mod.
 
Feel free to use the ideas! The more south-east asian civs make into mods the better.

Sorry for the 2-3 day delay between replies, I've been busy with work and most of my free time is spent getting the next pack together.
 
I definitely agree, Southeast Asian is usually underrepresented in Civ, its gotten better though I must say.

And don't worry about the delay man, the fact your back is awesome. I enjoy speaking with you. You sure know your stuff Bakuel. Very helpful as well for my efforts to develop the Java and Malays in QC:M(Boonkie has also been a great help).
 
Sorry, I've just been busy, spring is a very busy time of year for me. Hopefully I'll be able to post something by the end of the month. It'll be worth the wait.
 
This might be heretical but I even prefer the overall look of Civ4. The engine is obviously weaker, but Civ5 just feels too drab and clinical in many ways.
 
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