Armies

[Thalassicus]

After trying out Ironclads in my current game, I've found they're still bad even with a strength buff and resource change. They can't upgrade, nor can you upgrade earlier units to them. They're obsolete by the time one can get to an enemy city, even on Epic speed, because they're so slow and Destroyers are just a few techs later.

I'm going to include them in the upgrade chain: Caravels and Frigates to Ironclads, to Destroyers. Even with all these buffs they're still marginal compared to Frigates - slightly stronger but can't enter oceans. I'm realizing now just how horrendously underpowered the original version was... far worse than Frigates, an earlier unit... I don't know why.

Vanilla Ironclads compared Frigates:

• +3 (15 to 18)
• Much later tech
• Requires Coal
• 140%
• 80%
• Cannot enter oceans
• Cannot upgrade from earlier units
• Cannot upgrade to later units

@MisterBenn
Glad you like the siege change, it seems to be working well in the games I've played.

I like the idea of unit-specific promotions, but hifting away from terrain modifiers to unit ones is a rather big change... something more for a dedicated mod, I think. I'm focusing mostly on just tweaking the vanilla game to balance things for now.

Interesting idea about ranged units, I'll think it over a while.

 

[clearbeard]

I'm going to include them in the upgrade chain: Caravels and Frigates to Ironclads, to Destroyers.

I like this, don't know why they weren't this way in vanilla! After all, the CSS Virginia was the salvaged and iron-clad frigate (albeit a steam powered one).

 

[Perkus]

@Thalassicus
I've been playing through a full game with the latest basket of your balance changes. I think you're right about the Ironclads. Making them iron-based, while logical, made them even worse in my current naval-heavy game. I had 6 mostly quite experienced frigates using up all my very limited available iron. I couldn't upgrade them, and didn't want to junk them just to build ironclads. Would have been really nice to upgrade some of them, usage was largely coastal anyway. I don't know why the naval chain is so upgrade-poor. That's been probably the most annoying thing in my game. No naval units upgrade. You junk your triremes (though apparently they can upgrade to frigate? didn't realize.), then your caravels, then your frigates, etc. Unlike land units (Barracks/Armory/etc.), sea units stats at 0 XP, and only earn 2XP per bombard, so it takes a while to level them up. It's sad to have to decommission even caravels with over 100 XPs. It may not makes much sense for various things to upgrade (e.g. triremes), but it would more fun that way. Some of the vanilla upgrades make no more sense (Pikemen -> Riflemen?).

One thing that I really love is the addition of requiring Military Science for Artillery. I think that's working really well, delaying Artillery, making it a real effort to get, and making that middle branch more valuable.

Other than that, things are looking pretty good. Too bad the AI isn't any smarter with patch. About all I've really noticed is that they protect their workers much better. Still no mounted units. Still utterly incompetent at embarking. Still not running enough navy on a water map. Still suiciding crippled units into rough-specialized healthy defenders in the rough. General still never leave cities. Still hopeless with their Cannons. I'm running with open tile defense at 0%, and I like it that way. Makes it a little tougher to mow them down, at least. Added Advanced City Defense this game, it's not that much tougher, just takes longer to shell cities before capturing them.

I like the siege changes. Haven't noticed any real difference in how I use them, though. I still didn't make any archers, and still think they're overpriced. The lancers never seem to accomplish that much either, for some reason, even the Sipahi version. I had second thoughts about using the "Obsolete Promotions" mod because my Jannisaries were utterly worthless since I was at peace during their short window of effectiveness.

I'm testing the "military airbase" mod which gives some more specialization for air units. I like this idea.

 

[gruven]

The lancers never seem to accomplish that much either, for some reason, even the Sipahi version.

I second that. I never have a single lancer unless a CS gifts me one.

 

[Thalassicus]

I think the problem with Lancers is their place on the tech tree... they're clearly designed to be a version of the Knight more powerful on offense while weaker on defense:

150% of Knights
120% attack
60% defense
+1
Cannot upgrade to or from any other units

...yet they're on a weird spot on the tree, and not part of any upgrade path. They do have some limited usefulness against Cavalry (which have -50% against mounted units). Maybe if/when the AI build cavalry effectively Lancers will be more useful. I could reduce their cost down to 125% of Knights, making them a cheap skirmish unit.

A big problem with many of these units is simply the decision to only give 1 upgrade choice for every unit, which means a lot of side-units had to be left out of the upgrade path entirely.

Another HUGE problem is the vagueness of most unit promotions. How much is Cavalry's penalty against mounted? The player wouldn't have a clue unless you check in the XML files. I think I'll add a bunch of fixes for this problem in the unofficial patch mod.

 

[clearbeard]

@Perkus:
All of the old wooden ships can eventually upgrade to destroyers. In the vanilla game, caravels even get to keep their +2 sight range to add to the destroyer's +3, for a total of +5 when upgraded. I don't find triremes worth keeping around, due to high maintenance issues, but for the love of God, don't disband caravels with 100 xp!

@Thal:
I just noticed that gunships can't move after attacking in vanilla, post patch. Could you consider giving them that ability in your mod? They're yet another next to worthless unit as they are now, as far as I can tell.

And I totally agree on the annoyance of lack of detail on promos and other unit abilities. I never noticed that "good in the open" for tanks and cavalry translates into a +40% open terrain defense bonus (not sure about attack, never build tanks)! That hidden gem's not even a promo, just part of being mounted or armor, it seems.

 

[Perkus]

@clearbeard
Caravels -> Destroyers? D'oh! How the heck was I supposed to expect that? Is that supposed to make sense? This is my first long naval game, so I haven't dealt with it before. I didn't know the ships skip a step like that.

One huge problem is a lack of in-game info about what upgrades to what. I do have this handy chart I got somewhere around here a while back, I guess I should look at it more often. Problem is with all my upgrading mods it's totally obsolete anyway. Ideally I'd like to have an in-game upgrade chart that reflects modding. I guess there's a pretty ambitious mod idea!

The vanilla upgrade choices are so baffling, I have no idea what criteria they used. Fighters can go to Jet Fighters, but Bombers can't go to Stealth Bombers? It just seems so arbitrary, you literally have to memorize it.

 

[Thalassicus]

Yeah, they removed the Caravel -> Frigate upgrade, removed the Battleships -> Missile Cruisers, and removed the Cavalry -> Helicopter upgrade. But added Caravel -> Destroyers, a half-millennium leap in tech. It does seem rather haphazard. Pikemen upgrade to Riflemen, and keep the anti-mounted bonus?

It seems the current weak units left are:

• Lancers
• Anti-tank
• Helicopters

Basically, the "hard counter" units vs cavalry, tanks, and modern armor. Perhaps these would be more useful if the AI simply built and used mobile units effectively, which these are designed to counter? I could encourage the AI to build more mobile units, but there's not much I can do about tactical AI, so I'm not sure that'd really be worthwhile.

 

[clearbeard]

It seems the current weak units left are:

• Lancers
• Anti-tank
• Helicopters

Basically, the "hard counter" units vs cavalry, tanks, and modern armor. Perhaps these would be more useful if the AI simply built and used mobile units effectively, which these are designed to counter? I could encourage the AI to build more mobile units, but there's not much I can do about tactical AI, so I'm not sure that'd really be worthwhile.

In my most recent game (first with the new patch) I saw quite a lot of cavalry and armor being built, actually. That's where I came across the +40% open terrain defense bonus they have, which as far as I can tell is ONLY visible when you are attacking them in open terrain, and is nowhere in the documentation beyond vague hints in the "strategy" text in the 'pedia. Using them effectively is a different matter. All 3 of Rome's modern armor were sunk by my destroyers when they launched, completely unescorted, to try and take an island city of mine. And the woefully outdated cavalry (5-6 of them) were massacred by rocket artillery fire when they moved next to but declined to engage my hill-fortified mech infantry. They did die marginally slower than the infantry in the same open terrain. So at least that's working properly.

The one unit type I have never once seen the AI build are air units. I only have played on King and lower, but at least by the end game, the stronger AI's at least have near tech-parity. They just never build planes.

@Perkus:
What each unit can upgrade to, if any, is listed in its 'pedia entry as an icon in the left hand column. It's harder to find what modern units upgrade from, or what bonuses they have, or what promotions they can earn, but that's why we have Civ 4 to play.

 

[Thalassicus]

Are you certain they have an open-terrain bonus, and it's not some mod providing it? Here's their data entries:

Spoiler :

<Row>
  <Class>UNITCLASS_CAVALRY</Class>
  <Type>UNIT_CAVALRY</Type>
  <PrereqTech>TECH_MILITARY_SCIENCE</PrereqTech>
  <Combat>25</Combat>
  <Cost>260</Cost>
  <Moves>3</Moves>
  <CombatClass>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</CombatClass>
  <Domain>DOMAIN_LAND</Domain>
  <DefaultUnitAI>UNITAI_ATTACK</DefaultUnitAI>
  <Description>TXT_KEY_UNIT_CAVALRY</Description>
  <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVILOPEDIA_UNITS_RENAISSANCE_CAVALRY_TEXT</Civilopedia>
  <Strategy>TXT_KEY_UNIT_CAVALRY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
  <Help>TXT_KEY_UNIT_HELP_CAVALRY</Help>
  <MilitarySupport>true</MilitarySupport>
  <MilitaryProduction>true</MilitaryProduction>
  <Pillage>true</Pillage>
  <IgnoreBuildingDefense>true</IgnoreBuildingDefense>
  <GoodyHutUpgradeUnitClass>UNITCLASS_TANK</GoodyHutUpgradeUnitClass>
  <AdvancedStartCost>30</AdvancedStartCost>
  <XPValueAttack>3</XPValueAttack>
  <XPValueDefense>3</XPValueDefense>
  <UnitArtInfo>ART_DEF_UNIT_CAVALRY</UnitArtInfo>
  <UnitFlagIconOffset>48</UnitFlagIconOffset>
  <IconAtlas>UNIT_ATLAS_2</IconAtlas>
  <PortraitIndex>5</PortraitIndex>
  <MoveRate>QUADRUPED</MoveRate>
</Row>

<Row>
  <UnitType>UNIT_CAVALRY</UnitType>
  <PromotionType>PROMOTION_MOUNTED_PENALTY</PromotionType>
</Row>
<Row>
  <UnitType>UNIT_CAVALRY</UnitType>
  <PromotionType>PROMOTION_NO_DEFENSIVE_BONUSES</PromotionType>
</Row>
<Row>
  <UnitType>UNIT_CAVALRY</UnitType>
  <PromotionType>PROMOTION_CAN_MOVE_AFTER_ATTACKING</PromotionType>
</Row>

<Row>
  <Type>PROMOTION_NO_DEFENSIVE_BONUSES</Type>
  <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_NO_DEFENSIVE_BONUSES</Description>
  <Help>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_NO_DEFENSIVE_BONUSES</Help>
  <Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
  <NoDefensiveBonus>true</NoDefensiveBonus>
  <PortraitIndex>57</PortraitIndex>
  <IconAtlas>ABILITY_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
  <PediaType>PEDIA_ATTRIBUTES</PediaType>
  <PediaEntry>TXT_KEY_PEDIA_PROMOTION_NO_DEFENSIVE_BONUSES</PediaEntry>
</Row>

<Row>
  <Type>PROMOTION_MOUNTED_PENALTY</Type>
  <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_MOUNTED_PENALTY</Description>
  <Help>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_MOUNTED_PENALTY</Help>
  <Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
  <PortraitIndex>57</PortraitIndex>
  <IconAtlas>ABILITY_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
  <PediaType>PEDIA_ATTRIBUTES</PediaType>
  <PediaEntry>TXT_KEY_PEDIA_PROMOTION_MOUNTED_PENALTY</PediaEntry>
</Row>

<Row>
  <Type>PROMOTION_CAN_MOVE_AFTER_ATTACKING</Type>
  <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_CAN_MOVE_AFTER_ATTACKING</Description>
  <Help>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_CAN_MOVE_AFTER_ATTACKING</Help>
  <Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
  <CanMoveAfterAttacking>true</CanMoveAfterAttacking>
  <PortraitIndex>59</PortraitIndex>
  <IconAtlas>ABILITY_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
  <PediaType>PEDIA_ATTRIBUTES</PediaType>
  <PediaEntry>TXT_KEY_PEDIA_PROMOTION_CAN_MOVE_AFTER_ATTACKING</PediaEntry>
</Row>

<Row>
  <PromotionType>PROMOTION_MOUNTED_PENALTY</PromotionType>
  <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
  <Modifier>-50</Modifier>
</Row>

The only things I see that could have some hidden bonus are NoDefensiveBonus and CanMoveAfterAttacking, yet horsemen share those. Do they have an open terrain bonus too?

 

[clearbeard]

Are you certain they have an open-terrain bonus, and it's not some mod providing it? Here's their data entries:

...

The only things I see that could have some hidden bonus are NoDefensiveBonus and CanMoveAfterAttacking, yet horsemen share those. Do they have an open terrain bonus too?

Sorry for the wild goose chase. I looked back at an earlier save, and saw that I hadn't noticed the AI seems to give all their armor and cavalry shock promos. The +40 came from 2 levels of that.

That said, it seems to me that "no defensive bonuses" that these units have should apply to the open terrain penalty as well. They can't hide behind rocks or trees, but they darn well can dodge in the open.

 

[Perkus]

@clearbeard:
Re possible upgrades: Thanks for that tip, I didn't realize the 'pedia showed possible upgrades. I've hardly ever checked it for units. I just wasn't expecting ship upgrades to "skip generations", so it never occurred to me to bother checking on it.

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah, they removed the Caravel -> Frigate upgrade, removed the Battleships -> Missile Cruisers, and removed the Cavalry -> Helicopter upgrade. But added Caravel -> Destroyers, a half-millennium leap in tech. It does seem rather haphazard. Pikemen upgrade to Riflemen, and keep the anti-mounted bonus?

It seems the current weak units left are:

• Lancers
• Anti-tank
• Helicopters

Basically, the "hard counter" units vs cavalry, tanks, and modern armor.

I wouldn't mod anti-tanks too much. Tanks require oil but their counter does not.

 

[clearbeard]

I wouldn't mod anti-tanks too much. Tanks require oil but their counter does not.

I'm curious, do people ever actually run into shortages of strategic resources much? I've occasionally had issues getting that first source of iron linked up as soon as I would like it. Some maps I haven't had enough coal handy for all the factories I want to build. And uranium is generally present in such small amounts that I have yet to build a nuke, as it all goes to power plants and 1-2 GDR's. But horses, oil, aluminum, and iron beyond the first mine pretty much are just a source of cash from my enemies. So I'm curious how much of an issue "tanks require oil" really is, in most people's games.

 

[Thalassicus]

Tanks require oil, sure, but mech infantry don't and are probably still better than tanks even with the changes from this mod. So I guess my point is if improving anti-tanks means I also have to buff tanks a little more, it won't be too big a deal as mech infantry are still so good.

What I'm thinking of is how real life AT guns were simply direct-fire artillery. So I've been considering making them ranged, providing a non-siege ranged weapon in the industrial era. It would make them more interesting outside of their current niche role as a counter unit.

 

[Joneill]

First off, thank you for all your balance mods Thalassicus, they make the game much more enjoyable.

On the topic of lancers, anti-tank guns and gunships, why not simply create an upgradeline from pikeman->lancers->anti-tank->gunship? Would require removing the mounted penalty from cavalry and in turn giving lancers a (+50%?) bonus against mounted units, but it would give a complete counter-unit upgradeline against the "tank"-units (knight->cavalry->tank->modern armor).

 

[zimmah]

I'd like to suggest extending the jump radius of paratroopers. Right now they are of no military value.

The very idea of a paratrooper is going behind enemey lines and strike where the enemy don't expect you to show up. Because of that I guess it would be realistic to widen its jump radis from 5 to 10 tiles. (To be realistic they should be able to jump as far as bombers fly, but I guess that would be not very well balanced anymore)

in fact most planes can actually cross the earth

 

[Thalassicus]

Interesting idea regarding pikemen and such... hmm...

 

[Perkus]

On the topic of lancers, anti-tank guns and gunships, why not simply create an upgradeline from pikeman->lancers->anti-tank->gunship? Would require removing the mounted penalty from cavalry and in turn giving lancers a (+50%?) bonus against mounted units, but it would give a complete counter-unit upgradeline against the "tank"-units (knight->cavalry->tank->modern armor).

I think I actually rather like this idea. In fact, looking at the upgrade chart (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=391572), it almost seems like it might have been that way at some point. And after I saw that anti-tanks can be upgraded to gunships in my last game, any concerns of conforming to realism are out the window.

You'd also be canceling the lancer->cavalry upgrade. But it's a fairly substantial overhaul, perhaps too much for a balance mod.

 

[gruven]

I think I actually rather like this idea. In fact, looking at the upgrade chart (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=391572), it almost seems like it might have been that way at some point. And after I saw that anti-tanks can be upgraded to gunships in my last game, any concerns of conforming to realism are out the window.

You'd also be canceling the lancer->cavalry upgrade. But it's a fairly substantial overhaul, perhaps too much for a balance mod.

You're right. Looking at it in chart form really makes it seem like the lancer was wedged in there.