Army Officer Refuses to Deploy...

[Turner]

There's no war, so the death penalty can't be applied. In order for there to be war, Congress must declare war. It hasn't.

Well, fortunately for him, the US is not officially in a time of war.

Ah, but with his unit going over for combat/police operations, the rules might be a bit different.

But like I said, I don't know if the current situation would warrant it. Might be a useful threat though.

 

[IglooDame]

Exactly. I'm just in a mean enough mood right now to suggest he goes over there and serves his tour, and then comes back to a court-marital.

He won't run, knowing that desertion in a time of war is the death penalty. Although I don't know if our current situation would actually warrant that.

As far as desertion goes, to my mind it is just a matter of being under hostile fire, no legal declaration-of-war type stuff should be required.

And if he doesn't want to go, he won't go - but he will (hopefully) spend some time at Fort Leavenworth making big rocks into little ones. I absolutely respect his decision, but #1 he signed up aware of the risks and #2 it isn't his decision to make in the first place.

 

[Uiler]

Ah, but with his unit going over for combat/police operations, the rules might be a bit different.

But like I said, I don't know if the current situation would warrant it. Might be a useful threat though.

I'm sure he has a competent lawyer so if the threats are hollow, he'll know they are hollow.

 

[Turner]

As far as desertion goes, to my mind it is just a matter of being under hostile fire, no legal declaration-of-war type stuff should be required.

And if he doesn't want to go, he won't go - but he will (hopefully) spend some time at Fort Leavenworth making big rocks into little ones. I absolutely respect his decision, but #1 he signed up aware of the risks and #2 it isn't his decision to make in the first place.

Yeah, but the article also said that he could be charged with 'Missing his unit movement'. Which I recall was a more serious crime than simple desertion. Desertion can be seen as pardonable under fire. But missing a unit movement requires incredible stupidity or forethought.

It's a moot point. I'm in complete agreement with everyone saying he knew what he was getting into. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

 

[Kozmos]

Well, Cleric, refusing orders is a punishable offense any time, not just during War. However, refusing while all your comrades still go to a dangerous theater doesnt earn you a lot of mercy when it comes to the sentencing phase....

We'll of course refusing orders is a punishable offense, everyone knows that.

What else would you call it over there? A tea party? Somehow "The Tea Party against Terror" sounds more like a bad fundraising name than anything else.

If you call grinding some pathetic insurgents war...well good for your fundraising activities.

 

[skadistic]

He should be flogged 100 times, demoted to enisted rank, sent to war anyway, put on the frontlines in the most hostile of areas. This isn't like some other breach of contract. When you refuse to go to war after signing up to do so you put many lifes at an even greater risk.

His arguement that the war is illegal is BS too. The 14 UN violations were cause enuff to go to war or every time Sadam shot at planes patroling the no fly zone and breached the cease fire agreement.

This man is a coward plain and simple and not a hero standing up for princables.

 

[IglooDame]

Yeah, but the article also said that he could be charged with 'Missing his unit movement'. Which I recall was a more serious crime than simple desertion. Desertion can be seen as pardonable under fire. But missing a unit movement requires incredible stupidity or forethought.

It's a moot point. I'm in complete agreement with everyone saying he knew what he was getting into. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

That's got me a bit confused, as sailors showing up late when their ship is getting underway also get 'Missing movement' and it is a Captain's Mast (non-judicial punishment, MobBoss could translate that into Army/AirForceish).

So... yeah, it's a moot point.

 

[Elrohir]

Officially, there's no war and there never was. For that matter, the "combat operations" ended in May 2003, didn't they?

Perhaps war hasn't been officially declared, but fighting is certainly going on. We are at a de facto state of war; whether Congress met and signed an official document declaring it is largely irrelavent. I would say that Combat Operations did not end in 2003, obviously.

Just to clear things up, here's the relevant portion from the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice:

885. ART. 85. DESERTION

(a) Any member of the armed forces who--

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;

(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or

(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.

(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.

(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct

....(More)

 

[IglooDame]

Thanks, Elrohir, that clears it up nicely.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Standing up for what you believe in and refusing to do what you do not believe in is something that earns my respect - usually.

Joining the army voluntarily is not smart in my eyes, so even though he should have known before he signed up that he could be send to an unfriendly area; he may not have had the brainpower. Anyway I don't see a proper way out for him. Going to jail for what you believe in certainly makes you a political prisoner.

 

[JerichoHill]

Does he believe it , or was he using it to get out of going to a hostile environment.

One can never know for sure

 

[Zamecnik]

Its hard to say. I remember reading a famous Vietnam era poem though about a young man who was being sent to Vietnam, a war he totally didn't believe in. His options were Canada and being ostracized from his family, friends (unit, maybe, I can't remember, it's a famous poem, maybe someone else can remember it) or simply following the group and going to war. I think the poem ended with, "I was a coward and went to war," sort of throws that whole bravery and war thing into a different light.

Does he believe it , or was he using it to get out of going to a hostile environment.

One can never know for sure

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I don't understand how people like this get into a volunteer military.

I'd say it was patriotism and the naive believe his government won't start any unnecessary wars.

 

[MobBoss]

For what it is worth, whether you call it a police action, hostile engagement, etc. etc. its stll a war.

If it smells like war, looks like war, you step in it and it looks like war on your boot, then by all means its war.

If you doubt me go tell a Korea War vet that he was only involved in a police action. But dont blame me for the black eye you will receive.

 

[spankey]

Standing up for what you believe in and refusing to do what you do not believe in is something that earns my respect - usually.

Joining the army voluntarily is not smart in my eyes, so even though he should have known before he signed up that he could be send to an unfriendly area; he may not have had the brainpower. Anyway I don't see a proper way out for him. Going to jail for what you believe in certainly makes you a political prisoner.

It is interesting that you are from Nijmegen, the 82nd airborne shed lots of blood in that area--they must have been deficient in "brain power" in your mind as well.

If a thief believes that it is okay to steal, does that make him a political prisoner when he is incarcerated for stealing???
He is not being punished for his beliefs--he is being punished for his actions. His actions of signing up as a commisioned officer in a volunteer army, taking the pay and benefits thereof, and then cravenly refusing to honor his obligation for taking these benefits--that is why he is getting in trouble.

 

[shadow2k]

Going to jail for what you believe in certainly makes you a political prisoner.

He's not being jailed simply for what he believes in. If he wasn't under contractual obligation to do what they told him to...a VOLUNTARY contract, you'd have a point.

 

[MobBoss]

That's got me a bit confused, as sailors showing up late when their ship is getting underway also get 'Missing movement' and it is a Captain's Mast (non-judicial punishment, MobBoss could translate that into Army/AirForceish).

So... yeah, it's a moot point.

In the Army non-judicial punishment is the Article 15, under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). Its meant to be a corrective measure to punish a soldier while not ruining his career.

 

[Zamecnik]

How does having a contract negate the fact that he'll be a political prisoner?

He's not being jailed simply for what he believes in. If he wasn't under contractual obligation to do what they told him to...a VOLUNTARY contract, you'd have a point.

 

[IglooDame]

In the Army non-judicial punishment is the Article 15, under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). Its meant to be a corrective measure to punish a soldier while not ruining his career.

Yep, Captain's Mast is exactly the same for sailors.

 

[MobBoss]

How does having a contract negate the fact that he'll be a political prisoner?

Political prisoner? He isnt going to be a political prisoner. He isnt going to jail because of his political views. He is going to go to jail for disobeying a direct order. He could still retain his political views and obey the order - many do.

Yep, Captain's Mast is exactly the same for sailors.

Well, at least your system has a cool name.heh.