Arrakis.py map script discussion

[cephalo]

Why is this? Both SHALLOW_WELL and WINDTRAP are ERA_ANCIENT. Would it help if we moved SHALLOW_WELL to the lowest tech tier?

Wait a minute, I found something in my code that was meant for using PerfectWorld with FfH that disqualified build infos that had no tech requirement. That way non buildable 'special' improvements (i.e. Pool of Tears) didn't affect the value. Well, let me take that out and see what happens.

 

[davidlallen]

It should be driven by era. Also, I'm using 1.3.6 I believe, maybe you guys have fixed it since then?

Well, there is some philosophical debate on the "A mod-mod: Dune Wars Reduced" thread, but the current version is 1.4.1 from this post. You would also need 1.4 from this post. Could you locally try moving shallow well to the lowest tier and see if that makes the results better?

 

[cephalo]

Well, there is some philosophical debate on the "A mod-mod: Dune Wars Reduced" thread, but the current version is 1.4.1 from this post. You would also need 1.4 from this post. Could you locally try moving shallow well to the lowest tier and see if that makes the results better?

I fixed the actual problem with the buildinfo that requires no tech, (in BtS, all buildinfos require tech so there was no issue), but now I have a bunch of issues with the very small continents having less starting locations than players. I'll have to work on this a bit.

 

[davidlallen]

Very small islands is a problem on its own. Did you compare the average size of your islands against the average size of vanilla archipelago islands? Earlier in the thread I commented that vanilla ocean plots are still pretty useful compared to dune wars ocean plots; so small islands where most of your bfc is water will be a really crummy start for dune wars. Maybe the islands should be bigger.

 

[Deliverator]

We still need to implement the ice extractor improvement and associated wonder to coincide with the next working release of this mapscript.

 

[davidlallen]

I agree. In 1.4.2 I used your harvester concept art to make a button for the harvester build action. This frees up the oil rig icon to use for the Ice Drilling improvement. Do we agree that "+1 water in every city" is the right building to use the resource? Or should it be something like "+2 water in this city"?

Should the archipelago mapscript also be changed so that all this "stone rock" in the polar regions becomes ice? The possible problem with that is some civs may have a starting position far from the ice, and they will be shut out.

 

[Ahriman]

The possible problem with that is some civs may have a starting position far from the ice, and they will be shut out.

I don't think this is a problem; the civs far from the equator get the mesa/rock terrain, whereas civs near the poles get much more of the very bad broken/badlands terrain. Anything that mitigates the fact that polar starts are worse would be useful.

 

[cephalo]

Ok, here's a better version, the starts are somewhat more sensible.

I'm having alot of trouble with the trade-off between small islands and a map that looks good. I guess it would be ideal if every civ had it's own continent, but that would require something very different than what I'm currently doing. I kinda wish that the mod was more like bts, and that you only need transport to cross ocean. Larger continents look a lot better.

 

[davidlallen]

I kinda wish that the mod was more like bts, and that you only need transport to cross ocean. Larger continents look a lot better.

I am confused. Currently this mod is exactly like the bts archipelago mapscript; you only need transport to cross ocean, but there is ocean everywhere.

However, we could certainly discuss some other approach if you like.

 

[cephalo]

I am confused. Currently this mod is exactly like the bts archipelago mapscript; you only need transport to cross ocean, but there is ocean everywhere.

However, we could certainly discuss some other approach if you like.

Maybe I'm just out of date with the info, but I thought that having large continents on the map would put the AI at a huge disadvantage, as it won't use transport to travel on the same continent. Jeez, I don't even remember why that was a problem lol.

 

[davidlallen]

Oh, I misunderstood your point. I think the goal is to have islands that are roughly the same size as archipelago. With the current setup, you are right that large continents would be bad. The reason is that the AI will only use transports to bring units from one island/continent to another. It will never use transport to move units around on the same island/continent, even when that would be much faster. In DW this is more of a problem because our transports can move on both ocean and land, so it would be very handy to use fast transport to move units around a continent.

So large continents would indeed put the AI at a disadvantage.

 

[Ahriman]

The reason is that the AI will only use transports to bring units from one island/continent to another. It will never use transport to move units around on the same island/continent, even when that would be much faster.

Yet another reason for roads!

 

[keldath]

how about road just on certain tiles?

 

[Ahriman]

I also really like my idea of roads not buildable on rugged, dunes, hills or peaks. This would help to still make terrain matter and still be an obstacle. So you can easily patrol and defend your flatlands civilised areas with cottages and the like, but the harsher terrain still feels different.

Great minds.

 

[Deliverator]

Do we agree that "+1 water in every city" is the right building to use the resource? Or should it be something like "+2 water in this city"?

How about a ordinary building that gives +1 water everywhere and a world wonder that gives a further +1 everywhere?

Should the archipelago mapscript also be changed so that all this "stone rock" in the polar regions becomes ice? The possible problem with that is some civs may have a starting position far from the ice, and they will be shut out.

I reckon try it and see how it plays. You could customize the mapscript further to try and ensure everyone is a similar distance from the poles.

 

[Ahriman]

It would be great if the Archipelago mapscript has some means of encouraging settlement at the poles, rather than punishing it. The badlands/rugged terrain are terrible, and cities who start in them currently get screwed, whereas in reality the closer to the poles you are the weaker the winds are, the cooler the temperatures, the more water, and the smaller the worms.

Another though; is it possible (or already existent) to make the sandstorms spawn dependent on latitude? That would be nice if the big nasty storms couldn't spawn in the polar regions.

 

[davidlallen]

Those are both good suggestions for the archipelago mapscript. It is a little awkward to maneuver both mapscripts since they have different key terrain types. At some point, I may simplify the terrain types a little, which will involve tweaking arrakis.py a little. Then both can have ice. I like the idea of fewer storms near the north and south edges, but I am not sure that will make up for the awfulness of rugged.

 

[Ahriman]

Well, how would you feel about flipping the mapscripts; make the default be a large polar region script with lots of tundra and ice, and then have the vanilla plains and grassland be rugged and badlands, and vanilla tundra and ice be mesa and rock?

So the equator has dunes, badlands and rugged, while the poles have mesa and rock and ice, and tweak the placement scripts so that humans start in either the temperate zones or poles rather than the tropics.

Also: I just started re-reading Dune last night, and they talk about the people of "graben, sink and pan" as opposed to the people of the desert (Fremen). Maybe we should do some renaming of rock/badlands/mesa/rugged?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graben
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardpan

 

[Deliverator]

I was trying out the latest Arrakis.py and I've got a CTD. Here are two saves. I'm using dune reduced 1.4.4. Can people see if they can autoplay 100 turns or so without a crash?

I don't know if this is the sporadic crash reported in the modmod thread or something to do with the mapscript? Cephalo said something about pathfinding being more intensive.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

I always get ctd's after 100-200 turns with this mapscript.