Asterix the Gaul -- Or: How to get the biggest bang out of the Gallic Swordsman

Since this comes as a training thread, I'll say that discounting the cost of a warrior to pillage and 6 regular workers on a hill, or whatever it is on a mountain as non-industrious (9?), it always comes as less expensive to upgrade than to cash-rush. A warrior-gallic upgrade without Leo's costs you 90 gold (3 gold per shield), while cash-rushing 30 shields with 10 in the box costs you 120 gold (4 gold per shield). The value of tieing up workers and a unit isn't taken into account here, but you only need one resource source (and you only want one roaded if you try this) for any size map. So, disconnect-reconnect costs you less proportion wise for larger and larger maps, and the more units you can upgrade the better it works.

For the more experienced players with the Celts, how many gallics can you expect to upgrade in a game like this?

Yes, I think the 6 workers would be the hardest to come up with. I only have like 5-6? total, and I have plenty to do. I am mostly going to be upgrading anyway, I have 10+ warriors. that's 900 gold, which will take me some time.
 
@ creamcheese - for sure you do not want to research Lit in this game, if you do not positively know that you will need better ships to cross the sea for the other continent.

@ Spoonwood - good point. as for numbers, i would say not all too many, maybe 100? or even less.

t_x
 
@ creamcheese - for sure you do not want to research Lit in this game, if you do not positively know that you will need better ships to cross the sea for the other continent.

@ Spoonwood - good point. as for numbers, i would say not all too many, maybe 100? or even less.

t_x

Did you mean 10, or 100? It's just that 100 upgraded gallics sounds really high to me.
 
i meant 100, but it might turn out quite a few less. it depends how serious you are with the connect-disconnect. really, after the AA and Eng, there is not much else to do with the money. quite soon you will make 100+ gpt in this game, so within 90 turns, at the least, you will have the money for those upgrades, and definitely the warriors if you want to.

however, upgrading can become tiresome, and when one has enough troops in the field, he might simply stop to do that.

t_x
 
@ creamcheese - for sure you do not want to research Lit in this game, if you do not positively know that you will need better ships to cross the sea for the other continent.

@ Spoonwood - good point. as for numbers, i would say not all too many, maybe 100? or even less.

t_x

I won't have the shields to spare for many boats, if any. I'm not all that worried about contact first, this is a military game. GL will get me any tech I need, and ties in perfectly with the strategy of turning down research and upgrading a bunch of warriors.
 
lurker's comment: Dont forget if the Great Library nets you feudalism, you cant upgrade to or build gallics, assuming you have started Golden Age
 
I won't have the shields to spare for many boats, if any. I'm not all that worried about contact first, this is a military game. GL will get me any tech I need, and ties in perfectly with the strategy of turning down research and upgrading a bunch of warriors.

without boats this won´t be a military game for you. we are playing on continents, remember? ;)

t_x
 
You never know, maybe this is really a "supercontinents" game ;)

I'm in the middle of a solo "archipelago" game as England where ... about 70% of the landmass is all connected in a snakelike pattern.
 
lurker's comment: Dont forget if the Great Library nets you feudalism, you cant upgrade to or build gallics, assuming you have started Golden Age

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: I forgot all about this, damn upgrade paths! Maybe I should switch to a barracks instead. I am still very tempted by the GL though, I will just have less of a Gallic rush than I might have. Hmm...

EDIT, I could gift the GL city I suppose, but I was planning on building it in my capital. I guess this all depends on whether I think I am going to need cavalry or not. If I think it will get to that point I am probably better off going for the GL anyway and just accepting a limited push with my UU. They will probably carry me through USA and maybe most of Rome, which may be enough. I am also worried about Rome taking a long time and China getting Riders before I can cripple them. If this happens I might want to be teched up for pikes or maybe even explorers/ an army for resource denial.

without boats this won´t be a military game for you. we are playing on continents, remember? ;)

t_x

By the time I have conquered my continent I will have gotten boats from the GL or researched them already. I have plenty of time and they are not a priority.
 
creamcheese, this is a training game, so let us go a little bit deeper into this. i was talking about galleys, which may be all the kind of ship you need if the continents are close enough to each other. hopefully you started to do some exploration so you will know. if you only start to think about the other continent when you have conquered your own, the result and finish date simply will be poor.

on the other hand, TGLib will not at all be needed to win this, especially not on this difficulty level. if you are used to building it, start to get rid of this now. it only hampers you to start to play better. see the many threads on wonder addiction that exist here (i know what i am talking about. some years ago i would have abandoned a game when i did not all the wonders i thought i needed and wanted).

so whether you need or do not need better ships than galleys is what you should either know of start to find out by now. but the AI is still quite weak on this level, and if you wanted (you probably do not in this game) you can still easily outresearch them, so why would you want to build the GLib with so many shields? you got GSs to build, use your shields on those.

t_x
 
creamcheese, this is a training game, so let us go a little bit deeper into this. i was talking about galleys, which may be all the kind of ship you need if the continents are close enough to each other. hopefully you started to do some exploration so you will know. if you only start to think about the other continent when you have conquered your own, the result and finish date simply will be poor.

on the other hand, TGLib will not at all be needed to win this, especially not on this difficulty level. if you are used to building it, start to get rid of this now. it only hampers you to start to play better. see the many threads on wonder addiction that exist here (i know what i am talking about. some years ago i would have abandoned a game when i did not all the wonders i thought i needed and wanted).

so whether you need or do not need better ships than galleys is what you should either know of start to find out by now. but the AI is still quite weak on this level, and if you wanted (you probably do not in this game) you can still easily outresearch them, so why would you want to build the GLib with so many shields? you got GSs to build, use your shields on those.

t_x

It not that I'm not thinking about it, it's just that I don't need map making to be my next tech over lit (lit is also much better trade bait). It will be many turns before I need a transport, and I expect my (possibly suicide) curraghs will have found the other continent by then.

I am not wonder addicted, I only thought of it b/c I was planning on shutting off research anyway. I am losing out on a barracks and a fair number GS, but the pay off in tech seems like it will be worth it.

As stated above I'm worried about Rome taking an annoyingly long time (regardless of the extra GS by not building the GL) and having to tech to Cavs to win it. Maybe I'm too used to playing on Demigod? I guess I could be being overly cautious but I'd rather be safely on par than way behind in tech.
 
It not that I'm not thinking about it, it's just that I don't need map making to be my next tech over lit (lit is also much better trade bait). It will be many turns before I need a transport, and I expect my (possibly suicide) curraghs will have found the other continent by then.

I am not wonder addicted, I only thought of it b/c I was planning on shutting off research anyway. I am losing out on a barracks and a fair number GS, but the pay off in tech seems like it will be worth it.

As stated above I'm worried about Rome taking an annoyingly long time (regardless of the extra GS by not building the GL) and having to tech to Cavs to win it. Maybe I'm too used to playing on Demigod? I guess I could be being overly cautious but I'd rather be safely on par than way behind in tech.

you do not need Lit ever in this game, not for libs, not for TGLib and not for trade bait. there is nothing useful to trade for, actually. all you need to win this, with a bit of routine (or with help in a training game), is IW, a gov tech (even that could come optional) and MM. nothing else.

i won Sid military games without even revolting.

and then again, Spoonwood is of course right. to make his point a bit more precise: i often see that players, especially on the Emperor-DG-level, do not progress in difficulty because there is one important situation you have to accustom to that they do not appreciate: to live being behind in tech. but this is, in many games, the simple reality on Deity and Sid, and perhaps the major difference to lower level games.
it is a little bit different in a Celts military game though. here you do not even need to feel behind, you can simply deliberately say you stop research. but why then build the expensive GLib? you do not need the techs, so you do not need the GLib.

and now it comes, and why i gave my initial advice: the only situation when this is not correct with this setup, is when you cannot reach the other continent! then you need to do something else, because you may need better ships than galleys.

however, your proposed solution with the GLib for sure even then will not be the best (or even: right) one, as on this difficulty level, you will be much faster done with the conquest of your continent AND own research up to the cross-sea and -ocean sailing techs than gaining this knowledge from the Glib. Two of the other civs making good research in the MA and netting you those techs??? come one. ;)

no, in this case you can either: think of another wonder, namely the GLight! see the top players use this in many such games in the XOTM. (and you will never find one to build the GLib)
or you need to research up to those techs, maybe fostering one trading partner on the other continent in the meanwhile. you may even want to build Libs in that situation, but i doubt i would.

t_x
 
you can do this of course. but maybe you can avoid the hassle, as i could add, that if your victory strategy would rely on building the GW, it would not make any less sense to me than if you say you need the GLib in this game. ;)

t_x
 
lurker's comment: What do you guys think of researching to engineering for this sort of game, does it hel or are you better of building a cash pot
 
Eng helps, for both forests and movement, but i would not go so far as to research it. what for do you have the otherwise totally useless AIs? let them research or the scientifics get it as their freebie and extort it from them!

it is a military game, so pointy stick research rules ;)

t_x
 
Eng helps, but i would not go so far as to research it. what for do you have the otherwise totally useless AIs? let them research or the scientifics get it as their freebie and extort it from them!

it is a military game, so pointy stick research rules ;)

t_x

There's also the "gpt for hard goods" followed by the prompt "leave or declare" trick with the target AI at Furious. Though, I'm not sure that will work here.
 
i lost the philo race by one turn. thus all my preparations (no warrior builds, workers in place to irrigate) did not fit any more. who has ever heard that the Yanks go Philo first?!??? :mad:

Ouch, that really hurts! Do you think, the game can still be competitive after that? (The same just happened to me in COTM87, an Emperor game as the Aztecs, and my domination attempt was some 360 years slower than the fastest finish. Not sure though, whether missing the slingshot was the only reason for that decisive defeat: I made some more bad decisions in that game... :D)

In what year did the AI get Philosophy? I remember 2-3 years ago I.Larkin missed the slingshot in an Emperor game, and he suggested the theory that the game "punishes" the human player by gifting Philo to the AI, if the human player goes "too fast"... I don't think, something like this is programmed into the game, but perhaps they have a higher probability of popping a tech, when behind in research?!


Another tip for creamcheese: if you really think you will need the GLib in order to reach Cavalry, then let the AI build it for you... ;)
 
My advise for this session is:

splunge the 2nd:
First of all, Entremont at size 2 is way too small for this stage of the game. When producing workers, you should be running at 5-6, or when producing settlers at 4-6. Entremont could net you twice as much commerce (and shields) as it is currently making.
As a consequence of this, you need all those scientists in order to finish Philosophy in 2 turns. With Entremont at let's say size 5, you could probably finish Philo in 2 without having to burn so much food.

I also notice that Verulamium is not founded on a river, while it easily could have. 1W or 1NW would have been a much better site. This wastes food during despotism, and you'll need an aqueduct later in the game.

On the plus side, your naval exploration is off to a good start, and you can probably count on the slingshot (unless you suffer the same fate as templar and loosing the race one turn before the finish line...) :goodjob:


creamcheese:
Not much to be said here. Slingshot achieved, naval exploration started, decent expansion. You definitely have the game under control now.

I think there is one point for improvement: you have many workers improving the tiles between Lugdunum and Camulodunum, while the two floodplains are still unimproved! These floodplains are among your most powerful tiles (besides the deer and the cow). It should have been a high priority to get them irrigated already a while ago. (Paperbeetle, templar and myself are already using these tiles for a two-turn worker pump by now, which will help with getting the core improved quickly as well as building war roads towards our neighbors pretty soon.)

Lots has already been said about the GLib... I also think that a wonder in this type of game at this point of time is a waste of shields. (Even the Zeus Statue is not worth it in my opinion. Better build 10 horsemen instead...) But in any case, playing two versions of the game for comparison is an excellent idea. If you have the time, go for it, it should be quite instructive for all of us.

In your game the AI is strikingly backwards?! (Especially Rome.) This may make the game a bit difficult for you:
a) they will build lots of units, if they don't have libraries, markets or wonders to build...
b) they can't do any useful research for you...
Perhaps you should gift them up a bit. ;)
 
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