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Asterix the Gaul -- Or: How to get the biggest bang out of the Gallic Swordsman

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Lanzelot, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    basically yes. i have never gone back to Republic after that, but only used this for the last few turns. and if i do have enough money to rush everything, i will avoid that altogether.

    it depends on how much money i earn. it does not make sense to build too many warriors when i lack the funds to upgrade them while i miss those units on the front.
    but usually i would build warriors only in weak producing towns, especially 5-shield-towns. 10s-towns most probably will already build gallics directly. here it was not even possible otherwise as i connected only every two turns.

    t_x
     
  2. creamcheese

    creamcheese Spreading since 1990

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    Sorry, I've been sick, and will need a skip or whatever for this set. I'll catch up on the next round.
     
  3. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ok, some ideas on the turns 61-70:

    splunge the 2nd:
    Darn, bad luck on missing that slingshot! :mad: T62 is a decent date for Philosophy and many times the free tech will still be available at that point, so like templar you just had bad luck.

    You asked for advice on research strategy. Well, you are researching Republic now, which makes sense. Afterwards I would probably hope to pick up HB, Construction and Currency for Republic (HB is already known by the AI) and then "milk" Russia for Engineering. But would not spend money on research myself.

    This turns up an interesting question: is it worth it to build marketplaces to get more cash for upgrades/shortrushing, or are the shields better invested into Gallics?

    One advice on research, however, I need to mention here: you need more workers! With more workers you would have gotten Philo a few turns earlier. And also there are still so many tiles lacking improvement, e.g important tiles around Entremont so that it can finally operate as a 4-turner, and also the two floodplains, which could be used for a worker-pump! So due to this lack of workers, your expansion and general buildup is not going as fast as it could by this point.

    I assume that Entremont built the barracks while waiting to grow to size? (I remember I told you last time that the capital at size 2 was a nono...) In that case it's ok, even though the barracks is still kind of wasted at this early point (Entremont can still build a dozen settlers, before it needs to build military). You are paying some maintenance now, but at least you saved the shields later and no longer need to build the barracks when the fun starts.

    However, why Alesia already has barracks, I don't understand. It should instead have a granary and make use of the two floodplains... This would help getting more workers...

    Another thought that crossed my mind: now that you lost one of the curraghs, Richborough could switch to a galley before finishing those barracks. And Entremont can switch one forest to river grass, so it grows this turn. (There is shield overrun in Entremont anyway. Better get some commerce instead.) With more workers the necessary tiles for running Entremont at 5fpt, 6spt would already be finished.

    I see two scientists. Don't think the lost food is worth it. (Maybe worth it when racing for Philosophy, but now a turn more or less on Republic doesn't matter.) In Camulodunum you can set the scientist to work on the river grass to the south, and in order to get rid of the scientist in Lugdunum you can move a warrior from Alesia via Entremont to Lugdunum. (In general I think you could have built 3-4 more warriors before connecting the iron. That would help now as military police, and you'll already have a few more for upgrades later on.)

    Did I mention "more workers", yet? :D If you don't want to use Alesia as a worker town, you should asap found a town to the north if it (perhaps between the floodplains and the fish) that will get a granary and take over that task. But even better would perhaps be to let the barracks lie idle for now and get the worker production up and running in Alesia. Setting up another town for that would probably take too long.


    Ok, next turn set ready to go! We'll save at the end of turn 80, 1000 BC (and submit for the GOTM Quick-Start-Challenge... :))
     
  4. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    11 towns
    pop 43
    1 settler, 15 workers, 1 slave
    8 warriors, 2 curraghs
    2 grans and 3 rax
    horses and 1 lux connected
    worker on iron to connect it soonish
    met the other contintent, know 5 civs, meet 6th next turn
    entered MA

    t_x
     
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Spoiler :

    T071, 1225 BC:
    Entremont settler -> settler
    Alesia worker -> worker
    Verulamium galley -> harbor

    Chariot hops on Galley-V, which goes E-2S.
    Worker at Verulamium chops forest, worker 1N of Augustodurum starts road.
    Worker from Alesia joins another one 1N and both start irrigating.
    Two workers move 1NW of Lugdunum and start another mine.

    Agedincum founded, starts barracks. (Not yet final.)
    Scout 1W.
    Warrior hops on Galley-G, which moves 2W-SW. We meet the Russians, they have 60g and are completely backwards. We sell them Philosophy for 60g. An embassy costs 41g and reveals again a pathetic picture:


    Galley-R: W-NW-N
    The two Entremont workers go NW and SW-W-N in preparation for the next settler.
    Settler 1E.
    Worker at Richborough starts road.

    Writing down all the micro-management becomes too tedious now, so I'll omit it from now on. Here just a little trick: Agedincum is using the grassland marked red instead of the one 1S of Agedincum. That way the tile is blocked for Augustodurum (which would otherwise pick it up during growth as it doesn't have enough food), and so it has no other choice than picking up the forest or the iron hill, giving an extra shield. Next turn Agedincum will switch to the other grassland and Augustodurum can have the one marked red...


    The warrior from Alesia moves to Entremont, as I will need some warriors in the western area next turn for protecting all towns that are in the path of the Chinese warrior. We have a RoP, but leaving towns unprotected is sometimes too tempting for them and they sneak attack without caring for their reputation...

    T072, 1200 BC:
    Camulodunum warrior -> warrior

    Warrior from Camulodunum goes to Lugdunum, the one from Entremont to Camulodunum. The Chinese warrior has indeed moved onto the deer tile, but now all towns reachable from that tile are protected.

    Galley-V: SE-S-W
    Settler NE-N.
    Two workers start to road.
    Galley-R: E. Spots coast just out of reach. Too risky. I still have much to explore in my northern hemisphere.
    Galley-G: W-N-W.
    Scout 1W.

    America knows Monarchy! What a waste... Why didn't they research something useful...

    T073, 1175 BC:
    Alesia worker -> worker

    The three workers move to the three unroaded tiles NE of Alesia.
    Eboracum founded. Starts barracks.

    Galley-V: 2E-S.
    Move warriors around so that all towns within reach of the Chinese warrior are protected.
    Galley-R: N-2E.
    Galley-G: N-NW-W.
    Scout 1S.

    T074, 1150 BC:
    Camulodunum warrior -> warrior

    Now something very strange happened: if you open the attach 1175 save, you will notice that Lugdunum is producing 4s and should finish the chariot this turn.

    But if you just click "Enter", the chariot does not get produced!! Another shield gets lost due to waste making it only 3s nett?! Wtf is happening here?? Two of my towns have grown interturn, but that is nothing that can change the corruption distribution, is it?


    Darn.

    Workers at Lugdunum finished mine and start mining 1S, worker at Richborough starts irrigating. Three eastern workers start roading.
    Galley-V 2S-W.
    Galley-R NE-2E.
    Galley-G W-2S.
    Scout SW.

    Need to increase lux to 30% and can now get rid of the two taxmen in Lugdunum and Augustodurum.
    We send the warrior in Agedincum S to explore that black spot on the map.
    Some MM with Entremont and Alesia.

    T075, 1125 BC:
    Entremont settler -> settler
    Alesia worker -> worker
    Lugdunum chariot -> warrior

    Settler NW-2N, chariot on same tile.
    The worker at Verulamium has chopped the forest into Verulamium's harbor and starts a road.
    New worker NW-2N, the two existing workers up there start irrigating the desert for the town that'll get founded next turn.

    Again a bit of MM for Entremont and Alesia.

    Galley-V 2E-NE.
    Scout S-W.
    Galley-G 2S-SE.
    Galley-R E-S-E.

    Lux back to 20%, Verulamium, Lugdunum and Augustodurum need a taxman again.

    T076, 1100 BC:
    Camulodunum warrior -> warrior.
    Richborough barracks -> warrior.

    America now knows Mathematics! And they have founded San Francisco right by the fish on the NW coast. This can't be tolerated...

    Worker at Eboracum starts road.

    Burdigala founded -> barracks

    Galley-V 2N-W. There is a save passage next turn!
    Scout SW.
    Galley-G 3S.
    Galley-R NE-E-SE.

    Tax needs to be increased to 30% again, taxmen sent back to work - except for Lugdunum. Very strange again! Two turns ago it was happy at size 5, 30% lux and the same tile assignment! Did the corruption increase again in that town?!

    The Americans want 430g for Mathematics, a tech that is currently worth 148b!! We'll get it for free...

    T077, 1075 BC:
    Alesia worker -> worker

    The worker at Lugdunum go on the hill.

    Rome now also has Mathematics. Price has dropped to 200g now. We can wait...

    Galley-V 3E. A 1-tile island...
    Scout SE.
    Galley-G 2S-SE.
    Galley-R E-S-SW.

    The new worker goes S. Obvious worker management in the north.
    MM again for Entremont and Alesia.
    Lux temporarily increased to 40% for Lugdunum. It can grow in 2 now and finishes the warrior in 1.

    T078, 1050 BC:
    Lugdunum warrior -> warrior
    Camulodunum warrior -> warrior
    Richborough warrior -> warrior

    We have 12 warriors now, so I guess the time has come to connect our iron... Therefore two workers move on the iron hill.

    Galley-R 2S-W.
    Galley-V 2E-NW, yellow borders within reach next turn!
    Scout S.
    Galley-G 2S-SE.

    The usual MM. Lux reduced to 30%, Lugdunum gets the coastal tile, which is enough to keep it happy. The shield will be regained during growth.

    T079, 1025 BC:
    Entremont settler -> settler
    Alesia worker -> worker

    Settler NW-2E.

    The Americans are building the Hanging Gardens...

    Galley-V 2E-SE. Contact Egypt: they have Mathematics and HB, they are lacking Philo, CoL, Republic and Map Making.
    Trade Math and HB for Philo and CoL. Now I see: they also know construction! Excellent. I trade it for Republic.
    Embassy can wait till later. F7 shows that Thebes is working on the Pyramids. Hopefully Rome will beat them?!

    Galley R 2S-SW.
    Scout N.
    Galley-G 2S-E.

    More MM. Lugdunum needs a taxman again.

    T080, 1000BC:
    Camulodunum warrior -> warrior
    Richborough warrior -> aqueduct

    Moscow starts the Pyramids now, too. Well, that shouldn't be dangerous.
    Settler 2E.

    Galley-V E-SE-S. Blue borders spotted. Unfortunately I can't unload my chariot: the beach is all jungle :(
    Galley-R SE-2S.
    Scout N.
    Galley-G 2S-SE.


    QSC stats:
    11 towns, 44 pop, all AA techs except Currency (and Monarchy/Literature, which are irrelevant).
    1 settler, 13 workers, 1 slave
    14 warriors, 3 galleys, 2 chariots.
    2 granaries, 3 barracks.
    1 lux, horses (and iron almost connected)
    648g for upgrades...

    Hey, those stats look almost identical! :D
    (Except that you already know Currency, while I had more production (14 instead of 8 warriors, 3 galleys instead of 2 curraghs). How much gold did you collect by now?
     
  6. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    yup, i told you that you will have to still play a good game to stay ahead in our competition, even though you got the Philo SL and i did not.

    re your question about money, i hardly had any in 1000bc. this is the bonus you´ve got from your free government tech, while my money went into that research.

    when you suffered that corruption hit, did you found another town closer to your capital in that turn? i saw it before that only the turn after the foundation corruption was re-calculated. that may be the explanation.

    t_x
     
  7. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yes indeed, I founded Eboracum in 1175BC, which is distance 3, while Lugdunum is distance 5.
    Which by the way reminds me of another question I ment to ask: I founded Eboracum 3NE of Entremont, while you founded your corresponding town 4NE on the hill. So do you think that getting the fish and some more sea tiles is more important than keeping the hill? I had thought very long about this point, and then in the end decided to preserve the hill, as it is the only high-production tile up there.

    Regarding the QSC stats: yes, my 648g is pretty much what you had to pay for Rep (560) plus what I gained by a few turns less in Despotism. But how do you explain the extra 120 shields that I have at that point? I didn't mine any hills yet?! Ok, I used gold for speeding up my galleys, that may account for part of those 60s, but I have no explanation for the 6 extra warriors?! Reduced corruption over a dozen turns cannot amount to 60s?? Or wait, can it? Let's assume that 5 towns gained an extra shield after switching to Rep: 5 x 12 = 60!
    Interesting. So far I valued the sling-shot mainly for the extra food and the extra commerce, but the production boost is quite tangible as well!
     
  8. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    You grow faster with the fish, and don't have to spend so much time developing nearby territory if you plant on a hill. How much do you really get from the extra 1 or 2 shields that the hill gives you?
     
  9. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    If we get another shield because of the reduced corruption (distance 3 instead of 4), it may sum up to 3spt, which makes quite a difference. I could even build a 30s temple, if I really want to get the fish within the radius. (But my plan was to wait until I capture the Americans' ToA...)
     
  10. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    early worker turns are dear, and i do not want to waste them on towns that cannot reach one of the magic numbers. with the fish those crap towns in the eastern and northeastern core grow to size 6 fast and can work mined plain lands. that is fair enough for me. mined hills are not what i intend to build for them.

    the money you have got is quite the only advantage i can see at this stage. the warriors by themselves do not help at all, and in the GA and with quite a few towns, 5 or even 10 warriors are close to nothing. however, money to upgrade those warriors early is very powerful!

    we will see how this turns out.

    my disadvantages are many. however, i honestly like my settling pattern way better. i crowded the bad and mediocre sites while it seems you crowded your best land. hm. i do not know how much of a difference this makes in a fast and dirty Celts game, and some other things also went quite wrong in my game (like the other continent had absolutely NOTHING for me). since participation already seems very low, you can just as well get your game to an end so we can compare.

    t_x

    Edit: L, could you again post a pic of your empire?
     
  11. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    only by counting produced units you fail to come even close to precise comparison of shield output at this point. what if i already had 150 shields into the FP? ;) of course this is only theory and just to show what i mean.
    actually most shields that not yet produced anything are put into rax at 1000bc. so maybe the difference is even higher than 60s, or lower, or even non existent. from the qsc numbers alone you could not say.

    t_x
     
  12. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    The 1000 BC save is attached, what else do you need...;)

    I also have a number of shields in half-finished barracks, and I just went by the assumption that "on average" these shields about "even out" between our two saves. It may only be a very rough estimate, but I think it does indicate a trend. (Also don't forget the two chariots, which I forgot to mention as I think they are irrelevant, but that's another 40s.)
     
  13. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    i would need my civ computer at hands and some time to open the save. both is not available. but i do have eyes and an internet browser :D

    t_x
     
  14. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    That of course convinces me...
    At your service:


     
  15. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    ein Aquädukt und ein Hafen? also wenn du dafür deine Hämmer hinauswirfst, müßte dein Vorsprung an Prod denke ich etwas höher sein :D

    offen gesagt, deine Stadtplanung gefällt mir überhaupt nicht. Dein Plan für Gergovia, Rich und Camu geht mir nicht ein.

    t_x
     
  16. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Google doesn't translate that very well :(

     
  17. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    haha, sorry guys, i changed between civforum and here and forgot it is not the same language! :lol:

    it should go like:
    an aqueduct and a harbour? if you waste your shields like that, your Rep advantage in production might not be enough.

    i do not really like your city spacing and do not understand the plan for Gergovia, Rich and Camu.

    t_x
     
  18. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    I'm afraid that, with two jobs, there's just no way for me to keep up on two SGs right now. As I sort of accidentally joined this one anyway, I'm going to revert to lurker status. Good luck!
     
  19. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    Sorry for the dalay. Here's my next 10. I tried to incorperate some of the suggestions-I have a good force of workers, am using the food rich flood plain city as a worker pump and let the capital grow.
    I refused tribute to America and they declared.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 71
    Not much. Workers work, southern warrior moves East. Curragh sails.

    Turn 72
    Entrement settler>worker
    Now, I'm not sure where to build the next town. I could use the dyes, but hate a jungle town. A hill toen near the Americans could be a good staging area for attack. I send him to the west coast near america.
    Southern warrir excplores, curragh spots ivory in Russia.

    Turn 73
    Rome orders us out. We comply. Not much else.

    Turn 74
    Entrement Worker>settler
    Alesia GS (yay)>worker
    Start irrigating flood plain by Alesia
    Start mining BG by ENtrement
    Move to worker gold hill to develop it.
    Build GEorgovia on NW hill. Out cultural borders now touch America. Start warrior.
    Have to raise happiness tax. Republic in 9, ouch.

    Turn 75
    Not much

    Turn 76
    Alesia worker>worker
    Workers finish mine by Entrement and plan to road road to Gorgovia
    Scouting warrior heads home. Curraugh finds bottom of continent.

    Turn 77
    Camulundunum GS>GS. With MP, can work another tile.
    Curraugh starts back to mid continent to try an ocean voyage. Worker starts a road towards america.

    Turn 78
    America demands 22 gold, we refuse, they declare
    Move forces towards american border.

    Turn 79
    Entrement Settler>GS
    Gergovia warrior>warrior
    American Galley off of Gergovia (previously undefended) moves off.

    Turn 80
    Vet warriro kills american warrior
    GS's move to mountains to protect Gergovia.
    Settler moves to dyes SSW of Lugdunum. Curragh moves north to start sea voyage.

    Turn 80
    Verulanium GS>GS


    View attachment TrainingDayGame, 1000SAV.SAV

    For fun, I played ahead and I must say, Gallic Swordsmen do make salad out of Spearman. It was late at night so I really just played the milatary game, neglecting my poor workers, so I didn't save or document. Sometimes reckless is fun! If the RNG is friendly, I may yet pull off this game. After comments, I'll play the next 10 from the posted savemore soberly.
     
  20. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Being agricultural, an aqueduct is only 50s, and I think this is always worth it, even in a quick and dirty military game, isn't it? Especially as Richborough is going to be a first class high-production core city. The harbor, I thought, would enable me to get quite a bit of commerce in return. (Considering that Entremont-Alesia-Verulamium are a bit squeezed in, so working those sea-tiles will be necessary?!)

    The plan for Camulodunum is to build as many warriors as possible and then disband it, when the other cities get big enough and need the tiles. (As I said I wanted to try out the "temporary town" scheme in this game, getting as much as possible from tightly packed towns in the beginning, and then make room for bigger and more productive cities as towns are growing. Don't know yet, whether it is a good idea in the long run, but so far settling on the gold hill has enabled me to get Rep a turn or two faster than I otherwise would have, and also Camu has already built a huge number of warriors. I think it is worth the invested settler.)

    But in general you are right: city spacing is one of my weak points. I just put them where it "looks" ok, and then "hope" that each one will have enough tiles to work at size 12 without wasting food. The "magic numbers" for shields just happen, or they don't.
    But please enlighten us: what is in your opinion the perfect dot-map for this start position?

    Also I would really like to read what you have done so far. Why don't you save your turn-log in a local file on your PC instead of here in this thread in one big spoiler, and then just keep posting the portion of it up the point where the game currently is? Then we don't have to wait until the end of the game, before we can read it...
     

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