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Asterix the Gaul -- Or: How to get the biggest bang out of the Gallic Swordsman

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Lanzelot, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    actually this may prove to be of only minor importance in a Celts game. i even prefer my wasted research turns over your ultra early war. what about a little private competition of who finishes this game first, me or you? :)

    btw, what is the desired victory condition?

    i cannot access the game now, but you may remember... it was i think 7 turns after you got CoL yourself.

    i just read your COTM spoiler, that was unfortunate really.

    t_x
     
  2. creamcheese

    creamcheese Spreading since 1990

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    Floodplains are about the same as a BG it seems to me... 3 food or 2 food one production. I don't know. I guess I always dismiss floodplains because I've had annoying experiences with disease. I'll get them up asap.

    Yes, I don't know why Rome is so backwards, they seem like the most powerful civ otherwise. The only thing I can think of is the others popped some huts and Rome did not, and they are poor from buying techs from the others.

    I guess I'll have to sell Lit to them in the GL game. Or maybe not. I'd prefer for China to never get a Rider if possible, I'm not sure on the timing of when I will be killing them.
     
  3. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    My early war didn't do as much damage as I first feared: fortunately I was able to make peace two turns after I got Republic and one turn before my spearmen would have finished. Therefore I didn't loose that much:
    • one warrior (the Americans lost 3)
    • two turns delay on my revolution (still faster than anyone else)
    • instead of finishing a curragh in turn 57, Richborough finished a galley in turn 65 (in 16 turns the galley will have travelled as far as the curragh would have by that time, and from then on the exploration will be even faster)

    You on the other hand lost 560 gold and are facing a dozen or so additional turns in Despotism, isn't that much worse?

    Surely you played the start much better than me and are a better player in terms of strategy (and I'm notoriously weak in military games...), but do you really think you can overcome such a big handicap?! :confused:

    In any case, might be an interesting challenge... After your mishap, I think I have a real chance again... ;) I will go for Domination. (Conquest might be faster, but I think Domination will be more instructive for the students.)

    That's interesting. I finished CoL in T050 and Philosophy in T056. If the AI finished Philo 7 turns after my CoL and one turn before your Philo, that would mean the AI finished Philo in T057 and you in T058. What happened? By the time you finished CoL, your research had already caught up incredibly and you were only one turn behind. I expected you to catch up that remaining turn in the course of researching Philo and to finish Philo in the same turn as me. Instead you even lost a turn. :confused: (I guess my crazy idea of settling on the gold hill was a good idea after all?! :crazyeye:)
     
  4. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Emperor

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    I don't think you handled that war all too well. Maybe you shoud've revolted straight away while winging it as good as you can throughout the two turns of anarchy. You could have switched that granary build to a spearman maybe. Once you are a Republic you have no real problems dealing with emergency situations caused by a few warriors. You can always patch things up with a little bit of money.

    But worse than that is actually that you signed peace after successfully dealing with the first and most likely only dangerous situation. You've also lost the free war happiness, tied yourself to a 20-turn treaty, and given away a welcome and easy opportunity to take your UU for a walk and trigger your GA.

    Of course you might have different plans.
     
  5. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    that was only my memory, as i said. from the turn where you had projected to finish Philo, i finished it 1 turn earlier i believe.

    sure, let's go for a private competition. domination it is. will be interesting to see whether my stronger early development or your republic slingshot will prove more important in the long turn. btw, did you bribe my Americans to behave so strangely research-wise? :D

    t_x

    Edit: like LE i was quite surprised by how you dealt with the Yankee attack. in my game, very soon the Romans declared on me, 2-3 turns before i was ready for war (and planned to wage it against America, but who minds. in the long run all of them have to go...). i played on time and even let them have a town so to gain WH and start my GA. maybe you did not want to do the latter because your empire is still relatively small?
     
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Lord Emsworth, templar: perhaps I'm indeed a bit too chicken hearted... But I like to play it safe... The reasons for me making peace were basically as follows:

    • First of all, I was very lucky in the previous attack: 4 American warriors attacked, and I scored 3 wins, 1 loss. I remember games, where it went quite the opposite way... (For example SdM Jan 2011, where two enemy warriors (reg) approached my capital around 2500BC. I had 1 archer and 2 warriors (two vet and one elite) for protection, so no problem you would think. Nevertheless, the two warriors moved next to my capital onto grassland, the archer attacked - and lost! Now I had the choice: either activate/abort 3 threatened workers who were almost done mining/irrigating some fields and letting the AI pillage the tile they were standing on (an important wheat, iirc), or attack the two 3/3 and 1/3 warriors with my own 5/5 and 4/4 warriors. I chose the latter, and both lost. Game over.) If the Americans send more units (perhaps even archers), I might be less lucky next time.
    • There were still two American warriors located on the mountain directly adjacent to Entremont. Eliminating them from there could mean high losses (even with archers) and leaving them there was not to my taste. I don't like the constant threat of an attack to my capital or of stepping on my deer tile and messing up my SF.
    • Also don't underestimate an Emperor AI. They could easily bring more units to the front, and I didn't like the prospect of having to build more spears/warriors/archers for defense, when there is still more important stuff (settlers, workers, galleys, barracks) to be built.
    • The Americans had Polytheism for sale. I did not want to take the risk that they exchange their techs with Rome & China and then I have nothing left to buy it with. Polytheism is of high priority in this game, because I plan to trade it around early, hoping that one of the AIs will get a chance of finishing Artemis, before I wipe them out...
    • Another point is that I still hope to be able to take Rome as my first target. The war with America could spoil that plan. And I want America to finally start Artemis instead of throwing units at me...
    • And last but not least, the WH would soon go away anyway. Of the 30 WH points I started with, 10 were already consumed by the enemy warrior fortified for 5 turns on the hill next to Richborough, 8 were lost by the 4 attacks, and the remaining 12 points would be gone quickly, if they leave units fortified on my mountain for another 6 turns, at which point the WH would have been evaporated anyway...

    All these considerations prompted me to take peace at that point and rather choose the time for war, when I'm ready for it, instead of letting them force it upon me at an unappropriate point of time. The worst case scenario would be, if the Americans sign an MA with the Romans (which would not give me WH by the way!) and then I have to fight two strong opponents, while still being in the build-up phase.

    The 20-turn peace deal is no big matter anyway: even if everything goes perfectly, I will still need 10 turns for the build up phase and 10 turns for finishing Rome... (probably much longer?!).
     
  7. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Emperor

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    The enemy units in your territory don't cause any WW if I recall correctly so you still have a lot of room. (They just prevent it from abating once you have reached first level. But that is academic here.)


    Enough from the cheap seats. :D
     
  8. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Oops, yes, I guess my knowledge was a bit rusty on this point. (I just reread Oystein's article, so yes: no WW for enemy units inside the human's territory.)

    So I threw away some WH, but my other reasons were still valid, I hope...
     
  9. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    Verulamium isn't on the river? I thought it was connected by the corner (that was one of the screenies I wanted to post.
    If you'all don't mind, I may reload those last 2 turns to reset the lcoation. i'm playing to learn and as I intended it to sit on the river, I don't have any moral reservations to reloading to relocate.
     
  10. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    That's fine with me.

    BTW: rivers is indeed not one of the best parts of this graphics system... Sometimes they are impossible to see (for example, would you expect that the tile 1W of our iron hill is on a river? That river is invisible between the two mountains!) and sometimes tiles that look like they are on a river are not...
    Therefore I always rightclick on any planned city site in order to check, whether it has 0 commerce or not.

    Oh, and in case I forgot: we can all play the next set... Please save at the end of 1250 BC (turn 70).
     
  11. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    Thanks Lanz. I'll try to play from before the founding of Verulamium (if I can get an autosave that's right) to end of 70.
     
  12. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ok, I played another turn set.

    Spoiler :

    T061, 1475 BC:
    Entremont has grown to 6. I need to swap a few tiles now in a circular way: Entremont gives the BG to Richborough and gets the deer in return, and gives the forest to Camulodunum and gets the plains tile in return.
    This allows Entremont to grow in 2, while the galley in Richborough and the barracks in Camulodunum get a few extra shields.

    The two workers near Verulanium start a road.
    Scout 1W.

    T062, 1450 BC:
    Worker S of Lugdunum starts irrigating the BG, the other two workers start irrigating the plain for Richborough.

    Scout 1N.

    T063, 1425 BC:
    Entremont settler -> settler
    Alesia granary -> worker

    Settler moves SE of Camulodunum.
    Scout 1 NW.

    Due to Entremont shrinking to 5, a few tiles need to be swapped again:
    Richborough gives back the BG to Entremont and gets the plain. (During growth it should pick up the missing third shield.)
    Camulodunum switches the forest for the other plains tile so as to grow in 4. (It still has 4 spt now, thanks to the mine that meanwhile finished 1N of Lugdunum.)
    Alesia exchanges the river BG 1SE for the un-minded river grass. During growth it should pick up a 5th shield for the worker.
    Due to the above, Verulamium can now take the BG for an extra shield (and will pick up a third shield during growth.)

    T064, 1400 BC:
    Washington has started the Temple of Artemis. Excellent.

    Lugdunum barracks -> chariot. (A quick scout for another continent cannot hurt, and building warriors with 4spt doesn't make sense yet.)

    The two workers at Verulamium start mining the horse tile.
    Settler 1S on the river grass.
    Scout 1W.
    The two workers at Richborough move on a grassland each. (Gergovia finally needs a few improved tiles.)

    A bit of MM is necessary again:
    Gergovia exchanges the unimproved grass for a coastal tile. It still grows in two that way, but picks up an exta gpt.
    Alesia needs some extra commerce in order to stay happy at size 6 without raising the lux slider. Therefore Entremont switches one of the river plains for an unimproved plain, while Alesia gets the fully improved river plain.
    After Verulanium has grown this turn, it is set back to 6fpt.
    Richborough also switches gets a coastal tile for an extra gold, freeing the forest so that Entremont can pick it up during growth.
    I guess, all this calls for another picture:


    In order to finally speed up my naval exploration, I cash-rush the galley in Gergovia for 104g.
    The plan for the three galleys is as follows:
    • The galley from Richborough is to go north, clock-wise around our continent, until it reaches Verulamium (or crosses over to another continent)
    • The galley from Gergovia is to go south, counter-clock-wise around our continent, until it reaches the south-tip (or crosses over)
    • The galley from Verulamium is to go south, clock-wise around our continent, until it reaches the south-tip (or crosses over)

    T065, 1375 BC:
    Alesia worker -> worker
    Richborough galley -> barracks
    Gergovia galley -> barracks

    Galley-G W-W-SE. There is coast already in the west, and we can reach it next turn!
    Galley-R W-NW-N.
    Scout W.
    Two workers start a road.

    Augustodurum founded, starts a barracks. (Could become a Forbidden Palace, haven't decided yet?!)

    The new worker NW-N.

    Entremont exchanges the unimproved plains for the river grassland.
    Verulamium gives up its floodplain and gets the horse tile.
    Alesia needs 3 more food and therefore switches the unimproved plains to the second floodplain.

    I have a lot of gold now, so in order to reduce the risk of war (still have only 4 warriors protecting my core...), I establish the remaining embassies now. America 34, and China g.





    No wonder China is so backwards: building a settler at size 1 without a granary... pathetic!

    With embassies in place I can also sign more RoPs. America wants 40g for it! As they are already gracious (why is that?! We just finished a bloody war not so long ago?!), I skip the RoP.
    China accepts the RoP and goes from cautios to polite.


    IBT:
    Caesar comes very politely and wants 23g. Hmm, tough choice. I'm really not yet ready for war. And they have Horseback Riding, which I might be able to trade later on. On the other hand: we still have 13 turns of a RoP running with them. Will they declare on me with that RoP still active?! Anyway, with only 5 warriors I don't want to take any chances, so I cave and give it to him.

    T066, 1350BC:
    Irrigation S of Lugdunum is finished. As Lugdunum only needs 3f for growth, I give that irrigated BG to Gergovia and switch Lugdunum to a river hill:


    The worker moves NW on the grassland. The other worker 2NE of Entremont starts a road.

    Galley-G: 3W. We discover a hut! Should I return and take a warrior on board to pop it?
    Galley-R: NW-2N.
    Scout 1W.

    Entremont needs another shield in order to finish the settler this turn, therefore I let it switch the roaded river grassland (where the slave is still busy building a mine) with the irrigated/roaded river plain from Alesia.
    Alesia gets the horse tile from Verulamium, which in turn gets the roaded BG from Augustodorum. That way no food is lost. (MM is a bit difficult atm, because Alesia & Verulamium constantly need to take turns using one of the floodplains, so that they alternate between 4fpt and 6fpt, and both can grow without food waste.

    Warrior from Lugdunum moves into jungle SE of Gergovia.

    T067, 1325 BC:
    Entremont settler -> settler
    Alesia worker -> worker

    Worker 1N.
    Settler/warrior pair 3 SE.
    Worker at Lugdunum starts roading.
    Workers on horse tile move to BG and start mining.

    Galley-G: 3E, warrior hops on galley.
    Galley-R: N-2E
    Scout N.

    Verulamium switches the roaded BG for a floodplain to get 6fpt and grow this turn.
    Alesia has 4fpt and grows as well.
    Camulodunum gets that BG, so that Richborough can take the irrigated plain that became free that way.
    Lugdunum needs a taxman.

    T068, 1300 BC:
    The Americans start the Colossus.

    Galley-R: E-2W
    I switch research from Literature to Horseback Riding. (Don't want to accidentally pop HB...)
    Galley-G: 3W, warrior unloads on goody hut and pops -- two barbs. Thanks a lot.

    Warrior/settler pair on iron hill.
    Worker N of Alesia starts road.
    The two workers at Lugdunum join 2NW of L and start a mine.
    Scout NE.

    Verulamium gets a forest and a coast, Alesia gets the other floodplain and the unfinished grass, so that Camulodunum can take the mined BG and finish the barracks in 2.

    IBT:
    One barb attacks, reducing our warrior to 2/3, the other one runs away?! (It could at least have given me the veteran promotion!)

    T069, 1275 BC:
    Alesia worker -> worker
    Lugdunum chariot -> chariot (we need a mine on a hill there, before we can get 5spt)

    Chariot goes to Alesia.
    Chinese slave 1S of Camulodunum.
    Worker from Alesia joins other at NW-N and both start irrigating.
    Warrior/settler pair 1S.
    Warrior hops back on boat.
    Galley-G: W-SW-S
    Galley-R: N-NW-N
    Scout 1N.

    Richborough exchanges the plains tile 2SE for a coast. It'll get back the shield during growth.
    Entremont can now take this plain for 5fpt.
    Augustodurum takes the forest for one turn for an extra shield.

    T070, 1250 BC:
    Camulodunum barracks -> warrior.

    Slave starts a road.
    Worker at Lugdunum 3N, Richborough needs a good tile again.
    Warrior/settler pair 1S.
    Scout 1W on the mountain.
    Galley-G: S-W-S, spots brown borders! Warrior unloads on that lands end for some more visibility.
    Galley-R: W-2N.
    The workers at Verulamium split up: one goes into the forest, the other 1W on the hill.

    The tile assignment is a bit complex again this turn in order to meet all requirements of growth, production and happiness, therefore here is a picture instead of a thousand words...:

     
  13. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    i already played a bit ahead, so i can post my turns already as well. this is my empire at 1225, not 1250, which i have chosen because then i was finally able to revolt, after my self-research of Republic.



    t_x
     

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  14. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    @ Lanzelot - i´ve finished. since CA does not really work any more on my new computer, i am sure i messed up the dates i was supposed to save.

    you wanna know my date, or is that too much of a help already for your pretty sure win in our little competition?

    just one detail if someone is interested:

    Spoiler :
    i was able to bring 3 towns up to 2-turn-gallics after my GA which was nice and not so easy to set up. (ok, the 3rd town only managed to do so quite late and maybe built 5-7 gallics that way)


    Edit: it seems i got Philo in 1625bc, one turn after the Yanks researched it as their first tech after Writing. so i remembered correctly, this was one turn before Lanzelot researched it in his game.

    t_x

    Edit2: i will add some more information about my game, or otherwise i won´t know it anymore when this finishes for everyone. i´ll put it in a spoiler, so you should not read it if you do not want to get some knowledge that you may find you should not have at this point of time.

    Spoiler :

    you really think you want to read this already? :)
    Spoiler :

    after my failed Philo slingshot i finally enter Rep in 1175bc. of course that made all my finetuning and preparation for the earlier expected revolution obsolete.

    actually i planned to go against the Americans first, so that my back is free and my troops from then on only need to go one long way on our own continent. however, when shortly after 1000bc the Romans dared to make an outrageous demand, i ignored that i was not yet ready for war (iron not connected, no GS yet) and let them declare. they even took one unimportant town for 1 or 2 turns, but this way i got WH from them for a very long time. good thing in Rep.
    i took the town back and started the GA, which was quite well timed as my empire already had some size. i played connect-disconnect with three workers soon, so to connect every second turn. this is enough usually and saves worker capacity.
    i took the Roman core quite fast which netted me another lux. already during that phase i started the conquest of the weak Americans who built the Pyramids in Washington, which was very nice and may have compensated me for no chance to get (if only hand build) the ToA on my continent (which does not bother me too much with the Celts and their cheap temples, i did not even use the "revolt back" trick).

    i decided to build the FP in the southern hill town as i wanted some strong production towns when most seaside towns were small and designated to build boats. typically boats are the bottleneck in a continents military game. and here i found that the other continent was easily accessible with galleys but required quite a few of them so to be able to ship-chain troops over.

    my tied peace treaties went a bit wrong on the other continent but still had the effect that they stayed at war with each other. on my continent the Chinese wanted to add to my WH, and later on even the Russians joined to my rejoice. China was defeated quickly and rushed ships on the west coast ferried over what i still had left after them. Russia faltered when everything was put over. around that time i began to seriously go for domination, settling my continent and prepare temple builds, while setting up tax farms at the same time for the money. the core was optimized, one town kept building workers until shortly before the end. the units left in Russia was disbanded for settlers and temples. in 30ad russians and romans left the game.

    in the meanwhile, war against Egypt, and a little bit too early for my taste Babylon, had begun, with lots of cash rushing already (i peaked somewhere like +650 gpt in ad times). ToA was in Babylon and could not be reached easily. so i emphasized own settler and temple builds, even though i later broke their resistance and gained control of ToA. it did not become effective though and my other gains pushed me over the domination limit in 230ad. in russia and on my home continent, nearly all the dom tiles were covered. plus roughly 1/3 of the other continent. later i learnt there was another large island which i never knew in game.

    researchwise i was surprised that the Babs managed to get to GP. so they had a few muskets (the french maybe too, but i actually do not know). my own research was totally neglected after entering the MA relatively soon. only Eng was then laid hands on, no other techs were researched or traded for, even in a PT, only Feud by accident on the last turn.

    i got two leaders out of maybe 30 elite wins, so that was ok. one army was built on the home continent for faster conquest of china and one on the other continent but did against Babylons muskets.

    this was a fun game with a nice continents setup. my game was anything but perfect. a perfect game may finish around 10ad i would say and would need the slingshot, ToA, Pyramids available, good REX and early warring, no waste of shields for own wonders, libs and maybe even the FP, optimal ship chaining and city building; luck. :)

    hope you enjoyed it too guys, thanks to Lanzelot for setting this up for you, i hope i could support him a little bit in pointing out some of the finer details to you.

    templar_x

    pics for those who are interested in the set-up of my core and how i brought 3 towns to 20 spt after GA:
    Spoiler :








    templar_x
     

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  15. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    I played through 70.
    Missed the Republic Slingshot but I'm still in contention. I could use some advice on research strategy at this point.
    Spoiler :
    Turn 59
    Entremont worker>barracks (in 14?)
    Worker SE, E to irrigate raoded river

    plains.
    Richborough warrior south.
    Settler East (Lanzelot, I assume you meant

    East not West as a better site)
    Lugdunum citizen to scientist.
    Curraughs and explorign warrior move.

    Turn 60
    Worker irrigates.
    Worker roads to newly founded Velumamium

    (on river-loses out on getting incense

    though in cultural borders). Vel start

    warrior.
    Alesia citizen to scientist.
    Boats sail.

    Turn 61
    Lugdunum warriro>barracks. Scientist back

    to citizen.
    Eastern raft sets out for open water.

    Turn 62
    Missed the slingshot.Drat. None of our

    neighbors know philosphy so must be on

    another continent.

    Trun 63
    Camulundun BArracks>Gallic Swordsman
    Lose the eastern raft.
    Workers work Second warrior into Alesia

    Turn 64
    Western (only) raft sees brown borders
    Roman settler pair move towards iron

    Turn 65
    Alesia warrior>GS
    Richborough worker>barracks
    Entermont is size 4, growth in 4, racks in

    3
    We meet Russia. Trade them writing for 60.

    Trade Lincoln Phil for MAth. Trade Ceasar

    Phil and Math for Polytheism. We're still

    down horseback riding and China has no tech

    or cash.
    Workers work.

    Turn 66
    Workers chop and work

    Turn 67
    Entremont barracks>settler
    Workers work
    Lugdunum citizen to scientist
    Curragh continues West. Ivory in Russia's

    cultural borders

    Turn 68
    Not much. Chop finishes by Lugdunum.

    Workers work. Raft sails.

    Turn 69
    Lugdunum barracks >GS
    Raft sails

    Turn 70
    Again not much. Workers work, raft sails.

     

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  16. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    what are you researching since turn 62?

    Edit: whatever it is, short term all you need is a government tech, IW and MM. if you want to finish with a good date, that is actually all you need.
    already very optional, but useful is Eng.
    everything else rather delays the game than helps it. and beware of Feud as the Celts, because then you cannot build gallics any more.

    t_x
     
  17. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    Researching Republic.
     
  18. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    @templar: no, don't give too many details about your game yet, that wouldn't be fair... We can wait until we get to that point as well.

    There's only one thing, I'd like to know: a while ago (may have been a couple of years...) there was a debate about the usefulness of building the Forbidden Palace in a fast military game like we have in mind. Some thought it would pay off in any case, others (including some real experts on military games like Memento, tricky or Yilar, can't remember exactly) said the shields would better be invested in 10 horses.
    What's your opinion on that topic? I see you are building the FP in Richborough.

    @creamcheese: are you ready as well?
     
  19. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    everything is in the spoiler, so simply do not look. ;) but if i would start to write that down in a couple of months then i would surely have no idea what had happened in that game any more.

    even the FP answer is in the spoiler. in a normal continents game where you at least SOMEHOW can reach the other continent without astro or higher, i hardly believe that the FP pays off. at least the risk is too high it does not, given the investment.

    in this game, i built it because i wanted to. :) i saw that theoretically 3 towns had the potential to build 2-turn gallics and wanted to see if it works out. it did. and i love it when that happens and they reach their magical numbers. :king:

    and even if i would want to build it, i would normally use a leader in a medium level game. that is because you do not really need armies to overcome the AI. so you could simply use one of them (and chances usually are plenty there) for the FP.

    t_x
     
  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    4,884
    Location:
    Ohio
    I doubt the following will consist of spoiler information, but just in case...

    Templar_X,

    Spoiler :


    You mention some revolt trick. Do you mean revolting to Feudalism/Despotism, using it for pop-rushing temples/settlers in corrupt areas, and then possibly revolting back to Republic?

    Do you set all your cities to produce warriors and upgrade, or do you only set cities with 10 or less shields to warriors for upgrading... in other words, how do you determine which cities you have for upgrades, and (if you do have any) which cities just produce gallics?
     

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