Auto-Build, Luxury Resources, and Quality of Life

To me, I think such a mechanism would have to work on a more sociological level.

And I'm not sure a 'property' is absolutely necessary for this. We have happiness already. That's basically the same thing imo.

Not saying some additional programming couldn't be helpful though.

What happens in society, is that when a new product is generated (discovered, invented, yadayada, etc...) usually there's some patience among the masses in waiting to obtain access to it. The rich usually have some kind of exclusive access at first and most don't begrudge this as its the understood value of being wealthy. But over time it becomes more and more expected to have mass access.

Now, generally, what a person has not experienced will not leave them feeling like they are missing out, (you don't know what your missing if you don't know what you're missing yet.) But once they'd grown accustomed to having access to a luxury or utility, or they start hearing widely of others having it, they get irritated by its denial in rough equation to
a) how greatly access impacts (or would impact) their quality of life
b) how greatly they must adapt to being without it
and
c) how long and reliably they've had access and thus have come to expect its continued access

For example: if you have a horse and never had a car, what does it matter to you whether gas (petrol to some here) is cheap and available? But once you have a car, even though you still have your horse, its a little annoying if you can't ever get any gas for it. However, down the road, as society evolves to rely on the existence of gas access, the panic and rioting that can ensue when its suddenly unavailable and nobody has a horse at all (or any other nearly viable substitute for example) would be legendary. I figure this will happen gradually for us all here in the future as the cost grows to prohibitive levels to continue allowing its reliant use as we know it today.

When the people know they could have something they'd want, but know they don't have access to it now, they get a bit irate about it. Look at how prestigious it was to have a Cuban cigar during the trade freeze with Cuba? People had come to appreciate Cuban cigars then they were taken away to the chagrin of many and now that they've come back to being in circulation again its not quite such a big deal now.

Look at what took place during prohibition!!! Here the people were all the more upset that something they'd taken for granted as a standard accompaniment to life, something that was so basic it could be made in a person's bathtub (though not to the same quality or safety), something that was fairly addictive to some, something that had become a huge central point in much social culture for centuries before, had been taken from the people as a result of laws declared by a radical political movement. If prohibition had not been rescinded, it could arguably have torn our nation in two and for its day, the crime the resentment for this policy generated was a wave more powerful than our nation had ever seen before, threatening to make organized criminals as influential as our elected politicians.

My point is, there's a surge of happiness when people gain access to something new - just look at how excited people got over getting plastic bags in stores (they only had paper bags before this!) or how wild we go over new tech today. But if you want to see a REAL impact from resource access, look at what happens when something we count on is taken away from us.

What do you think would happen if carrots, something really basic like that, were suddenly unavailable (maybe carrots suddenly get a global disease and go extinct)? Wow... the upset that would cause would be tremendous!

The graduality of loss also plays a big role. We may never come to riots and such over the loss of gasoline due to the SLOW increase of its price over time into infeasability. It gives us time to financially adapt and buy electric cars, for example. So abrupt interruptions of service cause greater upset than a gradual one. (We'll never be able to replicate that without a volumetric access vs need being implemented for resources though...)

Personally, for this reason, I'd prefer to see work go first in a direction to get a more volumetric resource system rather than the yes/no have/don't have access that we currently have in the game. THEN working out a system like this that is more based on supply vs demand factors.
 
Disagree, not needed. We already have several forms of this. And type and size of map plus # of starting players All influence this too.

JosEPh

I know there are things designed to curb expansion in the early game, I just don't believe they work as well as they could.

I think having a direct trade-off between expanding and not expanding is more interesting than a penalty at an arbitrary number of cities, because it means you have to evaluate your situation and choose what is best at the time - rather than always expanding to x cities at y tech because it's the only intelligent thing to do.
 
I know there are things designed to curb expansion in the early game, I just don't believe they work as well as they could.

I think having a direct trade-off between expanding and not expanding is more interesting than a penalty at an arbitrary number of cities, because it means you have to evaluate your situation and choose what is best at the time - rather than always expanding to x cities at y tech because it's the only intelligent thing to do.

Maintenance and REV both already do this (if you play at a sufficient difficulty level for them to be apparent at least)
 
@ls612

As for the auto-build part, before you had me re-price all the buildings many of them had a uniform price, no matter where they are on the tech tree. This ment that a shop generally cost the same to build no matter what era it was in. Which in turn ment that as time went on you could produce many more buildings in a single turn by queuing them up. For example ...

Old
Build A = 50
Building B = 50
Building C = 50
Total = 150

New
Build A = 50
Building B = 100
Building C = 200
Total = 350

Whether this is good or bad. I don't know. All I know is having older buildings eventually get built because they are old could be avoided if buildings did not scale to get more expensive to make.
 
@ls612

As for the auto-build part, before you had me re-price all the buildings many of them had a uniform price, no matter where they are on the tech tree. This ment that a shop generally cost the same to build no matter what era it was in. Which in turn ment that as time went on you could produce many more buildings in a single turn by queuing them up. For example ...

Old
Build A = 50
Building B = 50
Building C = 50
Total = 150

New
Build A = 50
Building B = 100
Building C = 200
Total = 350

Whether this is good or bad. I don't know. All I know is having older buildings eventually get built because they are old could be avoided if buildings did not scale to get more expensive to make.

But that old system was horribly unbalanced by the time you got to the INdustrual era. Remember, the impetus for that change was Shenryyr's Lets Play and feedback in September which included many visible instances of how the game breaks down later on. That was one major thing that was broken past Medieval which was fixed, and now the game is far more playable until the late Industrial era where technical errors (integer overflows, etc) and lack of content break things.

This will make the game go by faster to a certain extent, and as you saw there seems to be widespready support for reducing the amount of buildings to be built.

@JosEPh: I believe Auto-Build obeys the minimum city size requirements on buildings already.
 
@JosEPh: I believe Auto-Build obeys the minimum city size requirements on buildings already.

But free at Tech to new cities does not which is why it may be a better route. The Colonist and Pioneer already give some buildings free without regard to any requirements, except coast for coastal buildings.
 
@Hydro:

Here is a preliminary list of buildings in your module that would be auto-built under the new system. Please look at it and tell me what you think about the choices, as well as what prerequisites, if any, need to be added to them for auto-building.

- Antique Shop
- Art Supply Store
- Basket Maker's Worshop
- Billboards
- Book Store
- Brass Smelter
- Brasssmith
- Brick Mason
- Bridal Shop
- Buffalo Jump
- Bug Catcher
- Burger Joint
- Café
- Candy Store
- Carpenter's Workshop
- Carrion
- Charcoal Burner
- Cheese Shop
- Cider House
- Cobbler
- Coffee Shop
- Comicbook Store
- Concrete Mason
- Cooper
- Copy Store
- Costume Shop
- Counter's Hut
- Crafts Hut
- Dairy Barn
- Diner
- Dining Hall
- Discount Store
- Distillery
- Donkey Mill
- Dried Fish Maker
- Dried Fruit Maker
- Dried Meat Maker
- Driftwood Gatherer
- Dry Cleaner
- Drying Frame
- Dye Maker
- Electrician's Workshop
- Electronics Store
- Fireworks Shop
- Fishmonger
- Fish Oil Maker
- Furniture Maker's Workshop
- Gemcutter
- Ghee Maker
- Grass Gatherer
- Hat Shop
- Ice Cream Parlor
- Ice House
- Imu
- Kerosene Distillery
- Lead Smelter
- Leadsmith
- Liquor Store
- Locksmith
- Lumber Camp
- Lumbermill
- Officium
- Olive Press
- Oxen Mill
- Pancake House
- Paper Maker
- Parts Plant
- Perfume Maker
- Pizza Parlor
- Potter's Workshop
- Printer's Workshop
- Quern
- Record Store
- Reed Gatherer
- Rendering Plant
- Rope Factory
- Rope Weaver's Hut
- Sail Weaver
- Sausage Shop
- Scroll Maker
- Seal Maker
- Seamstress's Hut
- Seseme Farm
- Shearing Barn
- Spear Fishermen's Hut
- Stained Glass Workshop
- Stationary Store
- Stick Gatherer
- Storage Pit
- Straw Gatherer
- Tablet Maker
- Taco Hut
- Tannin Maker
- Tar Refinery
- Tea House
- Timekeeper's Shop
- Toy Maker
- Toy Store
- Vine Gatherer
- Warehouse
- Watchmaker's Shop
- Water Bottle Factory
- Whale Oil Maker
- Wig Shop
- Woodcarver's Hut
- High-Tech Crane
- Modern Crane
- Steam Crane
- Acacia Grove
- Acorn Grove
- Agave Plantation
- Allspice Plantation
- Almond Grove
- Apple Orchard
- Apricot Orchard
- Artichoke Farm
- Avocado Plantation
- Bamboo Grove
- Banana Plantation
- Barley Farm
- Barley Gatherer
- Bean Farm
- Bearberry Farm
- Begonia Farm
- Bell Pepper Farm
- Blackberry Farm
- Black Pepper Farm
- Black Truffle Gatherer
- Bluebell Farm
- Blueberry Farm
- Bolete Gatherer
- Brazilwood Grove
- Breadfruit Orchard
- Broccoli Farm
- Button Mushroom Farm
- Cabbage Farm
- Cactus Plantation
- Cannabis Plantation
- Cantaloupe Farm
- Carnation Farm
- Carrot Farm
- Cashew Grove
- Cauliflower Farm
- Cauliflower Mushroom Farm
- Celery Farm
- Chanterelle Gatherer
- Cherry Orchard
- Chestnut Grove
- Chili Farm
- Chinampa
- Chives Farm
- Cigar Roller's Shop
- Cinnamon Plantation
- Cloves Farm
- Coca Plantation
- Coffee Plantation
- Cochineal Farm
- Cocoa Plantation
- Coconut Plantation
- Cola Grove
- Coral Tooth Mushroom Gatherer
- Corn Farm
- Corn Gatherer
- Corn Smut Farm
- Cotton Plantation
- Cranberry Farm
- Cucumber Farm
- Date Palm Plantation
- Daisy Farm
- Durian Orchard
- Eggplant Farm
- Elderberry Farm
- Enokitake Mushroom Farm
- Fig Plantation
- Flax Farm
- Fly Agaric Gatherer
- Frankincense Plantation
- Fustic Grove
- Garlic Farm
- Ginger Farm
- Ginkgo Grove
- Gooseberry Farm
- Grapefruit Orchard
- Great Chinampa
- Guava Orchard
- Hedgehog Mushroom Gatherer
- Henna Gatherer
- Henna Plantation
- Hibiscus
- Honeydew Farm
- Indigo Farm
- Indigo Gatherer
- Iris Farm
- Kale Farm
- Kiwifruit Orchard
- Leech Catcher
- Leek Farm
- Lettuce Farm
- Lily Farm
- Lime Plantation
- Liquorice Farm
- Macadamia Grove
- Madder Plantation
- Mango Orchard
- Maple Grove
- Millet Farm
- Morel Mushroom Gatherer
- Myrrh Plantation
- Nutmeg Plantation
- Oat Farm
- Olive Orchard
- Onion Farm
- Orange Plantation
- Orchid Farm
- Oyster Mushroom Farm
- Pansy Farm
- Papaya Plantation
- Papyrus Grove
- Peach Orchard
- Peanut Plantation
- Pear Orchard
- Pecan Grove
- Peppermint Farm
- Persimmon Orchard
- Peyote Plantation
- Pineapple Plantation
- Pine Mushroom Gatherer
- Pistachio Grove
- Pitaya Orchard
- Plantain Plantation
- Plum Orchard
- Pomegranate Orchard
- Poppy Plantation
- Portobello Mushroom Farm
- Potato Farm
- Pumpkin Farm
- Quinoa Farm
- Radish Farm
- Raspberry Farm
- Rattan Grove
- Rhubarb Farm
- Rice Gatherer
- Rice Paddy
- Rice Terrace
- Rose Farm
- Rubber Plantation
- Rutabaga Farm
- Saffron Plantation
- Seaweed Farm
- Shaggy Parasol Mushroom Gatherer
- Shimeji Mushroom Farm
- Shiitake Mushroom Farm
- Silk Farm
- Snapdragon Farm
- Snow Fungus Farm
- Sorghum Farm
- Soybean Farm
- Spinach Farm
- Squash Farm
- Strawberry Farm
- Straw Mushroom Farm
- Sugarcane Plantation
- Sunflower Farm
- Sweet Potato Farm
- Tangerine Orchard
- Taro Plantation
- Tea Plantation
- Timber Grove
- Tobacco Plantation
- Tomatillo Plantation
- Tulip Farm
- Vanillia Plantation
- Vineyard
- Violet Farm
- Walnut Grove
- Wasabi Farm
- Watermelon Farm
- Wheat Farm
- Wheat Gatherer
- White Truffle Gatherer
- Zucchini Farm
- Antelope Hunter's Camp
- Aurochs Hunter's Camp
- Bison Hunter's Camp
- Boar Hunter's Camp
- Caribou Hunter's Camp
- Deer Hunter's Camp
- Diprotodon Hunter's Camp
- Elephant Hunter's Camp
- Giant Bison Hunter's Camp
- Giraffe Hunter's Camp
- Hippo Hunter's Camp
- Kangaroo Hunter's Camp
- Mammoth Hunter's Camp
- Megaloceros Hunter's Camp
- Megatherium Hunter's Camp
- Moose Hunter's Camp
- Mouflon Hunter's Camp
- Muskox Hunter's Camp
- Narwhal Hunter's Camp
- Rhino Hunter's Camp
- Seal Hunter's Camp
- Walrus Hunter's Camp
- Woolly Rhino Hunter's Camp
- Zebra Hunter's Camp
- Amethyst Mine
- Bauxite Mine
- Borax Mine
- Caesium Mine
- Chalk Pit
- Clay Pit
- Coal Mine
- Cobalt Mine
- Chromite Mine
- Citrine Mine
- Copper Mine
- Diamond Mine
- Emerald Mine
- Flint Quarry
- Fluorite Mine
- Garnet Mine
- Gold Mine
- Graphite Mine
- Hematite Pit
- Iron Mine
- Jade Gatherer
- Jade Mine
- Jet Mine
- Lead Mine
- Magnetite Mine
- Marble Quarry
- Mercury Mine
- National Marble Reserve
- National Obsidian Reserve
- National Salt Reserve
- National Stone Reserve
- Nickel Mine
- Obsidian Quarry
- Oil Derrick
- Onyx Mine
- Platinum Mine
- Pyrite Mine
- Quartz Mine
- Ruby Mine
- Salt Quarry
- Sand Pit (Beach)
- Sand Pit (Desert)
- Sand Pit (Stone)
- Sapphire Mine
- Silver Mine
- Stone Quarry
- Sulphur Mine
- Tar Pit
- Tin Mine
- Titanium Mine
- Topaz Mine
- Turquoise Mine
- Uranium Mine
- Zinc Mine
 
@ls612

1. First of all you these to be auto-build right off the bat? Not delayed to be built later in the game like DH's idea. Becuase most of those I do not think should be auto-built as soon as its possible.

- National Marble Reserve
- National Obsidian Reserve
- National Salt Reserve
- National Stone Reserve

2. These should NEVER be auto-built because they can be placed in any city and are a National wonder. In addition these do not exist yet.

- Buffalo Jump
- Bug Catcher
- Imu
- Quern

3. Prehistoric buildings like this should not be auto-built. Mainly because they go obsolete so early and one of the fun parts about the prehistoric era is that there are only so many buildings you can build. Thus its a lot more important which you build.

- Brass Smelter
- Brasssmith

4. These should not be auto-build since they give such a negative effect. Especially the brass smith with can be built in EVERY city that has a forge, tin ingots and copper ingots. Basically you would be forcing eery city to have a Brasssmith which could be extremely detrimental to new cities.

5. Rather than making these auto-build I would rather make some more Guilds. And honestly the more you add to the auto-build list the less the player gets to see unless they look them up in the civpedia. To modders like us who ave played the game over and over these may seem boring to see the same old buildings again, but to a new player they might not see a Wasabi Farm or Cobalt Mine after playing a series of games. They are just so rare that they are not worth making automatic. In fact there are some combos I have never seen yet in my games. And I have played C2C a lot!

In short please don't try to push the whole auto-build stuff. There are some cases I agree they should be while a majority of the others I just disagree. C2C is always going to have a ton of buildings to make and that's the charm of the game. The challenge is "what to build"? That was international as a strategy of the game.

And i do understand that over time cities can have TON of buildings to make. But there are other ways to do it. Such as I said, through Guild/Franchise National Wonders, Settler Units and DH's idea of some building being auto-build after specific techs. Not to mention the trade caravans to speed up production.

Having so many buildings become auto-build takes away the players control and as a result makes it almost like the game is playing itself. If you want that you would be better off just turning on the AI city controls and have the AI pick your buildings.
 
@ls612

The other option would be turning the mod on its head. You see in Sim City 4 you do not place each shop or factory but "zone" for stuff. So rather than say having the Barter Post be auto-build it would be the building you build and all the rest of the shops would be auto-built.

I could possibly go for this idea. However it would have to be done slowly and over time. I don't want to get burnt out like I did when we redid all the building costs.

So for example all crops buildings would require say a "Farmland" building. That way you could at least choose weather or not you want that city to build all the farms.
 
@Hydro:

1. I think that yes they should be auto-built right off the bat. If you feel that that would be too early the buildings can always be moved back to a later tech.

2,3,4. Good catches, I tried to get all of those and delete them from the list but a few slipped through. I removed all future buildings, factories and large-scale Industrial buildings, prehistoric buildings, and Metal manufacturing chains from the list as well as national wonders.

5. I kinda expected you to be against such a large change, but I think that many players have supported this general idea of auto-building many more things and that with some design the buildings could be made to auto-build with harder prerequisites if you feel such things are needed. But I do still intend to push for this during this cycle.
 
I think you should not be using auto build to "fix" the problem. There are existing mechanisms to do it. Both the FreeStartEra and FreeNewCity may be better. The last in particular since it builds the buildings in new cities only after the tech has been discovered.
 
I think you should not be using auto build to "fix" the problem. There are existing mechanisms to do it. Both the FreeStartEra and FreeNewCity may be better. The last in particular since it builds the buildings in new cities only after the tech has been discovered.

The FreeStartEra won't really help with later games unless you are starting in a later era. And I thought Auto-Build was specifically made to handle these sorts of situations.

Maybe an AutoBuildTech tag could be added or something to alleviate Hydro's concerns.
 
5. I kinda expected you to be against such a large change, but I think that many players have supported this general idea of auto-building many more things and that with some design the buildings could be made to auto-build with harder prerequisites if you feel such things are needed. But I do still intend to push for this during this cycle.

Please don't make me rush into this for this cycle. If we do this I want to do it right and not pressured into it. I also realize many players would like them to be auto-buildings or even buildings removed.

However this is the breaking point for me. These buildings are the reason I joined up with SO and DH to make C2C. Basically what you are saying is the exact same reason why Afforess took out my buildings from RoM/AND. C2C was suppose to be the mod where I COULD do this and have a bazillion buildings and not one could say no. I even asked SO before I joined and he said "Sure! You can have the creative freedom you want." If not for that I would have just stayed modding HAND by myself.

In short please don't push this, cause the more you push the more I don't even want to mod C2C anymore. :mad:
 
I think you should not be using auto build to "fix" the problem. There are existing mechanisms to do it. Both the FreeStartEra and FreeNewCity may be better. The last in particular since it builds the buildings in new cities only after the tech has been discovered.

I agree with these. FreeStartEra makes a lot of sense and doesn't force everything to be built if you play the game to experience it all.

FreeNewCity is also more appealing since it would act like that tech feature where if a civ is behind in tech its easier to get techs. Except in this case if a city is behind in buildings then they are built.

Having this idea gets the best of both worlds where new buildings get discovered and experienced by the player. While buildings that have been around for awhile and clutter up the build list get eventually made on their own.

So yeah if there was even a 3rd tag that was like "auto-build at tech" I would add those to existing buildings. This would also help with the whole obsolete building problem I have run into where if a player has not built a building yet and you run into weird obsolete things not working.

The FreeStartEra won't really help with later games unless you are starting in a later era. And I thought Auto-Build was specifically made to handle these sorts of situations.

Maybe an AutoBuildTech tag could be added or something to alleviate Hydro's concerns.

Exactly! AutoBuildTech is a much better compromise. Like I said above it would also help reduce confusions when some things go obsolete but you never upgraded a building that solves the issue.
 
Autobuild = check each city every turn against a list. The fewer we can have in it the better the turn times.

As far as I knew the problem was getting new cities up and running, not managing existing cities.

I suggested we do the balanced era start as a way of sorting out which buildings should be candidates for the free in new cities or even auto build. Since it also is a something that has been asked for a lot.

I a with Hydro - I am a builder, I like having lots of buildings to build and making choices about which ones I want where. Who cares what units are available -:mischief::mischief: in fact why don't we auto build city guards when the crime rate gets to high:mischief::mischief:
 
Exactly! AutoBuildTech is a much better compromise. Like I said above it would also help reduce confusions when some things go obsolete but you never upgraded a building that solves the issue.
I am planning to consolidate auto build functionality in general including the property auto building stuff and it could include making some of that stuff into boolean expressions to make it easier to add conditions like "auto build this at tech X".
 
My tiny bit of opinion here: I so much love all these (even small) buildings very much, so detailed and with love implemented. I love to build them in my cities. But I agree, it might be best to have them automatically built for countering the obsolete-issue. Connecting this to a tech feels.. organic, somehow, natural. If this could be done, it would be really a great addition to the game.
 
Wow this discussion is all over the place...

@ls612
Trying to pull back on my bias of not agreeing with you as you never agree with anything I say.. Anyways, I can appreciate you trying to work on the extreme amount of buildings but I disagree with the method. I don't think a luxury of life meter or whatever you would call it is necessary, and if anything should a true building it should be these types if buildings. I'm much more willing to want to build a shoemaker or something than I am to build a bark gatherer. Hell gathering bark is an action not a building. Happiness is sufficient in my opinion.

@Hydro
This is a tough one for me. As someone who has as yet little modding skills but high hopes for my ideas I can totally understand why you would be upset about the whole building thing. They are your creations man, I get it. On the other hand the number of buildings in this game is getting to the point where it ruins the mod for me, and each cycle more just get added. I really think everyone needs to have a conversation where we can figure out a way to get a solution that really works for all style if players. I don't want to ruin the fun of the builder type players but I (being more of a balanced player) seriously get so fed up with all these pointless buildings. I don't even read the names half the time and just look at the benefits, there are so many that are almost the same thing.

@everyone

Auto-building: only good for certain types if buildings. I like the auto built housing mostly.

FreeAtTech/Era: very good options in my opinion and could really cut back on the 1 turn buildings in new cities.

Consolidating: my preferred method. Get rid of some buildings, make more of them into upgrade chains. Thus reducing the feel of redundancy of +1 to this and +1 that.

I feel like a solid combination of all of this could really make everyone happy. There should be plenty of room for everyone to have fun in this mod don't you think?
 
Autobuild = check each city every turn against a list. The fewer we can have in it the better the turn times.

As far as I knew the problem was getting new cities up and running, not managing existing cities.

Those conditions could be cached for performance if it becomes an issue (which it isn't yet if my profiling is to be believed).
 
Probably i am going to state something already said but this is how i look on the subject

you play the Nation, the Government so building things important like planning out like a building construction workers could work from, a Timber Grove so Timber won't go scarce etc. should be manually but Shops are not from the Government (unsure though how that was in the Middleages and before it) but from the merchant populous so why should the Government be taxed with building something they doesn't own basicly they Zone a specific area to be for this and another for that

maybe a -prod building only like 2 hammers in the second age up to 10 or 15 orso in the modern Era for the work the government does to ensure buildings are safe and build on their respected zone just a small amount that shouldn't be wrecking either increased by tech or by pop size (or a combination of both) more pop more size they need to check and advanced tech means more advanced building technology so also harder to detect if things go wrong
 
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