Avoiding fights when using liberty policies

[vexing]

THEY are missing my points. For whatever reason, I don't know. I think sometimes it is something you get locked into. When you think you are the best and are always right, you tend to teach and ignore the suggestions of the 'lesser' people.

have you considered that perhaps liberty is demonstrably better? a comparison of the full benefits of each tree isn't a valid proof of anything; the free liberty settler and worker are some of the main strengths, which are second and third policy and take about 1/5th the total culture of the next three. the benefits of earlier settler grow cumulatively.

anyway, you refuse to concede, so i suggest you prove the value of tradition by using it in the current HoF science challenge. empirical proof would be a lot more swaying than extremely presumptuous hypotheticals.

 

[Pazyryk]

But I couldn't think of how without taking into account a bunch of other stuff too. Like what if the liberty player hits the happy cap sooner because of this rapid expansion? Or what if the tradition player pops a 2nd / 3rd ring luxury to trade sooner? Or what if an early war prevents forming a 3rd or 4th city right away?

You can't take this into account for a baseline analysis because these factors are very situation. The OP for this thread is itself a situational factor: it could argue for Tradition if you are trying to avoid war; or it could argue for Liberty due to the windfall that AI attack can bring to a human player. Your math supports my intuition that Tradition and Liberty are roughly comparable in a generic sense. Geography, goals and intended approach tip the balance one way or the other (although I would argue usually to Liberty).

 

[Pazyryk]

i suggest you prove the value of tradition by using it in the current HoF science challenge. empirical proof would be a lot more swaying than extremely presumptuous hypotheticals.

Seems like a fair challenge. However, I haven't seen ArcaneSeraph claim that Tradition is better than Liberty, so it may be asking him to prove something he hasn't argued for.

 

[ArcaneSeraph]

have you considered that perhaps liberty is demonstrably better? a comparison of the full benefits of each tree isn't a valid proof of anything; the free liberty settler and worker are some of the main strengths, which are second and third policy and take about 1/5th the total culture of the next three. the benefits of earlier settler grow cumulatively.

anyway, you refuse to concede, so i suggest you prove the value of tradition by using it in the current HoF science challenge. empirical proof would be a lot more swaying than extremely presumptuous hypotheticals.

have you considered that perhaps tradition is demonstrably better? a comparison of the full benefits of each tree isn't a valid proof of anything; the faster wonder production and free buildings are some of the main strengths, which are the second and third policy and take about 1/5th of the total culture of the next three. the befefits of earlier wonders and extra culture grow cumulatively.

anyway, you refuse to concede, so I suggest you prove the value of liberty with a true averaged analysis of many games on the hardest difficulties. empirical proof would be a lot more swaying than simple stating multiple times your are smarter than me and liberty is better with no reasoning.

HoF challenges are fine for those who like them but I kind of find them silly. Weird difficulty levels, no end of rerolling, map settings all over the board, letting you tailor the conditions and civs so that 1 is better than the other. It also presumes that a faster win is somehow better than a slower win, lets you abuse all the game mechanics that are obviously bugs, and are not repeatable wins when given just a random map.

Why should I concede? I'm just trying to present ideas and making no claims on what is superior and what is not. I'm trying to provide helpful insights to others as people have done for me on this forum. Or is this a communist forum?

 

[Glassmage]

You are all wrong! Commerce is the best policy! It has picture of a BOAT!!1 I LIKE BOATS!!

but seriously, Liberty is better if you want to complete it fast because of the one-time benefits. Tradition is better if you are planning to complete it later, because the only points worth spending on are opener, Aristocracy, and Obligarchy, the other 3's are better for late tall empire.

 

[ArcaneSeraph]

@ Glassmage

You are 100% right! That boat picture inspires you to victory. You can't lose after you get it.

BTW. I just took a look at that HoF Science challenge to see if I could actually demonstrate that Tradition can be quite decent (no I never said it was vastly superior or any such nonsense). It made me laugh though. That has got to be pretty much the most biased settings in favour of liberty I can possible think of.

First of all, it's on the warlord difficulty. So there goes the need for any defensive army. Hence pure oligarchy or anything involving honor is absolutely useless. Also there will be no rush for any wonders at all. You can build them in any order or at your leisure. Hence aristocracy is useless. The real kicker is... you have to play as France. France?!?! That's by far and away the absolute best civ to take Liberty with. Early legalism is useless (even late legalism is kind of useless as them). You want a wide empire to max their bonuses, which makes monarchy and landed elite useless.

So I'm supposed to prove that tradition is good in a situation that nullifies all its bonuses?

How about the aztecs prove they can get a lot of culture from barb hunting... but oh BTW there are no barbarians. How about we prove that liberty is the best. Oh but you have to play as Egypt on a tiny island map with no room for a second city until astronomy.

Anyways.. to end the argument as I didn't want to cause one in the first place... I am more than happy to concede that I know very little about streamlined games that are focused on winning as soon as possible. I'm sure other players are far more knowledgable about that. So if they say liberty is the best for that kind of game, that's fine .

I play more for fun. I like to have like 20+ wonders built and survive to 2050 or something. I like to see how many future techs I can get before the game ends. I like to try to survive the nukes on Deity. I like to try to make rather poor trees like commerce pay off and such.