Axe rushes on Deity

[CaiusDrewart]

Hello all,

After Civ VI proved somewhat disappointing, I've returned to Deity Civ IV. I can win Deity games if I rush with an overpowered UU. I can sometimes win Deity games if I attack with elephants and catapults. I can also occasionally win Deity games if I have a lot of land and can peacefully make it to 7 or 8 quality cities, though I often lose those anyway. All this gets a bit stale, though, so I've been trying to mess around with some other early rushes.

I know Horse Archer rushes can sometimes work on Deity; AbsoluteZero has posted a bunch of youtube videos of them. But can pre-catapult Axe rushes ever be viable? When I played on lower difficulty levels I used to love doing them. On Deity, I've been trying and I can basically never get them to work. I just don't get good enough odds to kill the AI's archers. Obviously I'm whipping and chopping like crazy to build a ton of axes but they just get slaughtered. Even Aggressive, City Raider I axes against non-Protective archers don't seem to get good enough odds. I even tried two games as Gilgamesh and Vultures still weren't enough (though I was pretty close to succeeding one time and got some bad RNG luck). But maybe I'm not doing it right. Is it ever a decent strategy on Deity?

I'm also curious if an Impi rush could ever work on Deity. I'm guessing no on that one, but maybe someone has pulled it off.

This is assuming standard speed, of course. I'm also assuming a start that has Copper within the capital's first border pop and a nearby non-Protective AI.

 

[lymond]

I think the main issue with Deity other than the obvious bonuses like production, is the "expansion' window is much shorter for AI simply with the extra starting settler. I'd say in general Axe rush is not all that viable, but is certainly possible in the right conditions. You know that Quechas are an effective rush unit on Deity, so the main difference being cheaper unit and no resource requirements. Odds aren't terribly different though. So you really need very fast access to copper so that you can start axe production immediately and probably at the expensive of a second city - unless you have a lot of forests to chop. You neighbor should be within a reasonable distance to launch attack and you get attack started before second border pop so you get a clear 1 turn to attack city. Scouting helps too, although you may likely not have Writing before an attack, but if you can get views to the city(ies) and track their archer and settlers, you can find opportunities to sneak attack.

The point being is don't just build a stack and slam it into a city. Try to be opportunistic. But yeah, this has to be snap snap..and..at least on normal speed..only likely effective for one AI. Protective can be possible too, although you have higher chance of bad odds screwing it all up.

I'd just use Impis to choke. They get such poor odds on city defending Archers.

 

[Fippy]

Can be decent, yup.
I usually only consider them with aggressive thou (or Giggles), there are some thingies you can / should do.

CR1 is weaker than cover, my first attacking Axes usually get cover (assuming no Axes for the AI).
CR is better when you get positive odds, to eventually reach CR3 with Axes that are less likely to die until then

Warriors are actually useful when facing more defenders in a city, if you put them on tiles (without roads, flatland works best odds for AI) next to that city, some units might come out and kill them = less defenders.
Also works great on barb cities.

Building a nice big stack before attacking is very important here, while in expansion AIs often leave their cities weakly defended.
You really do not want to declare with too low numbers, and put them into unit spam mode before you have enuf units (i try aiming for ~10 Axes + eventually 2 Spears for chariot defenders + some warriors for luring).
If your city still goes strong with units each ~2 turns, sometimes even 1 turn when chops or overflow arrives, i find it's still worth waiting for even more.

Ofc that's a lot of preparation for just 1 city, so micro becomes very important.
Whipping & chopping should work hand in hand here, it's often decided not during war but by how many turns do you need for each unit.

Cease fires play a huge role for those rushes as well.
Almost never do you want to take heal (or reinforcements) pauses, and stay in war.
One reason why building a big stack before attacking is so important, if you are not strong enuf they will not take those cease fires

Generals can change everything (and should imo not be used as super medic for Axes) as Warlord, now a couple CR3 Axes should be doable.

Like Lymo wrote, it's difficult but highly entertaining & strategic.
Worth trying & learning for sure.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

A Vulture rush when one has Copper in the capital's BFC should definitely be winnable. Fippy's tip to promote aggressive axes to Cover is really good, but Gilgamesh isn't Aggressive, so City Raider I with a Barracks is the best first city attacking promotion for Vultures; the defenders don't have to be Archers either.

Using the Aggressive AI option will ironically cause the AI to accept Cease Fires sooner.

I'm a strong believer in stealing Workers from the AI prior to the axe rush itself. Indeed, those stolen Workers can chop forests to get your stack of doom out quicker and face less defenders as a result. Stealing 1-2 Workers from many of your nearby opponents can really set them back too. You may not want to steal Workers from the Civs you plan to wipe out early; That allows their Workers to improve plots for your near future cities.

Cease Fire after stealing a Worker ASAP. As long as an AI is at War, he is more likely to build military units than other things. Also Cease Fire while your stack rests and heals between city attacks as Fippy suggested.

 

[lymond]

Yep, and the worker stealing essentially extends there expansion window, buying you a little more time for success. AI is still going build more workers and delay that next settler..and units.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Thanks for the advice, everyone! From what people are saying I think need to build more axes before attacking. Using ceasefires after most city attacks is an interesting idea. That seems like it could be very effective.

 

[Fippy]

Good to remember thou that worker stealing on "normal" deity games can be very dangerous.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Good to remember thou that worker stealing on "normal" deity games can be very dangerous.

Yeah, the majority of times I've tried worker stealing on Deity things have gone wrong. The AI usually won't make peace and since they have 2 cities it's not really possible to stop them expanding or improving strategic resources. So unless I either had an early unique unit or I plan on very quickly rushing the AI in question, I typically wouldn't. If you're just playing to have the best chance of winning, I think the risk outweighs the reward most of the time.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

To get a Cease Fire after a Worker steal:

Using the Aggressive AI option will ironically cause the AI to accept Cease Fires sooner.

That should say they will "talk" sooner; they won't necessarily Cease Fire. Getting the AI yo talk is halfway to getting a Cease Fire though.

Also, building up one's power will help. Just one Axemen or a number of cities equal to what the AI has will often suffice.

War Success (40+ will be sufficient, but it will definitely not be necessary) - capturing a city = 10 - capturing a settler/worker = 1, killing a military unit is a least +1 (+3?), losing a military unit is at least -1 (-2?).

Often, one's Power is enoungh and if its not, killing one Scout might suffice for the AI to talk and probably accept a Cease Fire too.

Yes, on Deity a worker steal is a definite risk, but it has a huge pay off too. Putting that stolen Worker(s) to work chopping Axemen will greatly mitigate the risk.

 

[sinimusta]

IIRC putting your mil units near enemy cities made them make peace more easily if you have agg AI on.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

IIRC putting your mil units near enemy cities made them make peace more easily if you have agg AI on.

Yes, putting even a warrior within a 5 x 5 area centered on a enemy city will allow you to get more in a peace deal (the warrior is "threatening" the city). I'm not sure it will get you a cease fire quicker, but it certainly can't hurt.

 

[Pengu]

Well, it the same as all early rushes on deity. Winning the war is only half the problem as I always get killed by the maintenance.

 

[Fippy]

Plundering can be very good on early rushes

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well, it the same as all early rushes on deity. Winning the war is only half the problem as I always get killed by the maintenance.

Capturing The Great Lighthouse is a good way to solve the maintenance issue. Another is focusing on getting Currency early (adds a trade route and allows "building wealth" or building wonders for fail gold (wealth).

 

[elmurcis]

Toku had no metal but Toku had stone..
my attack was so letal but now I was alone /used civic change to Rep after he built Pyramids/

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Capturing The Pyramids is good too. Well done!

 

[cseanny]

Straight up Axe rushes can work but I'd be more inclined to add some Cata's. Either way is doable but AxePult will provide better results. Both can be achieved with minimal improvements (worker steal when possible) and good whip mechanics.

Older post of mine regarding a great way to very very quickly amass a substantial Army in short work. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/reduce-turns-to-make-things.565471/page-2#post-14230309

 

[SittinDown]

cseanny - that means a later rush though, right? the number of bulbs needed to get construction and the extra hammers for cats is way higher. so instead of a 2000-1500 BC rush from 1-3 cities, you're talking a 500 BC rush from 5 cities. i see how it can be effective, and I'll give it a try. it's a different kind of rush though.

 

[30+]

deleted.

 

[cseanny]

cseanny - that means a later rush though, right? the number of bulbs needed to get construction and the extra hammers for cats is way higher. so instead of a 2000-1500 BC rush from 1-3 cities, you're talking a 500 BC rush from 5 cities. i see how it can be effective, and I'll give it a try. it's a different kind of rush though.

You don't need to bulb. To throw out there, I wouldn't suggest playing Deity games w/out a minimum of a decent+ start location (7+ out of 10). Immortal can be won on games w/out a single resource (literally. I.e. AP abuse) but not so on Deity. Focus should be on keeping your Empire small and cities in close proximity to one another, thus maximizing city overlap and tile sharing (especially your Capital via cottages).

Like my example from my previous posts link, a new city with nothing more than 1 farmed tile can whip units extremely fast. You wanna streamline your build and throw out everything you don't need or have time for - including the kitchen sink (you can get another sink in a new city!). Throw in some chops and good ole anger (much whipping!) to get the ball rolling as fast as possible. That momentum is key.