axeman or swordsman?

The argument for mopping up with cats is that they start at 60% (compared to 80% for swords) but end up at 95%+ due to collateral damage. I tend to have a few cats with accuracy for defence stripping and they're the ones that get to mop up the tail.
It has to be said that I play at monarch (getting stomped at immortal in wotm7) so I can't really comment on higher levels.
 
The argument for mopping up with cats is that they start at 60% (compared to 80% for swords) but end up at 95%+ due to collateral damage. I tend to have a few cats with accuracy for defence stripping and they're the ones that get to mop up the tail.
It has to be said that I play at monarch (getting stomped at immortal in wotm7) so I can't really comment on higher levels.

Who ever said that they start at 60%? At that point you've sacrificed a few cats to weaken the defenders. You need to sacrifice a few more to get to 95%, as opposed to not needing to do so for swords to clean up.
 
Who ever said that they start at 60%? At that point you've sacrificed a few cats to weaken the defenders. You need to sacrifice a few more to get to 95%, as opposed to not needing to do so for swords to clean up.

That's certainly right, but you seem to neglect the retreating ability.
A catapult with 60% win odds has a 70% survival ability.
If it doesn't win, it still inflicts colateral damage.
I'm not saying that a sword wouldn't have won, but even if it had, it wouldn't have inflicted colateral damage.
When you include the retreating chance and colateral damage, you see less advantage in the swords.
 
That's certainly right, but you seem to neglect the retreating ability.
A catapult with 60% win odds has a 70% survival ability.
If it doesn't win, it still inflicts colateral damage.
I'm not saying that a sword wouldn't have won, but even if it had, it wouldn't have inflicted colateral damage.
When you include the retreating chance and colateral damage, you see less advantage in the swords.

But you've already done enough collateral damage for swords to finish the job. And in my experience, catapults don't retreat enough to seriously consider that as a factor.
 
For me I'm stuck up with axes since they come first ,later swords + cats is ideal. High level city raider swords can take out even axes once properly softened. The Ai prefers to have more archers than axes defending hence I find swords better.
 
But you've already done enough collateral damage for swords to finish the job. And in my experience, catapults don't retreat enough to seriously consider that as a factor.

Well, you considered going from 60% to 80% a factor.
So I considered going from 60% to 70% survival a factor, althoug a lesser one.
25% retreat is not negligible. Usually the retreaters end up promoted and a lot tougher.
 
I agree that you can't ever have too many siege weapons (okay, you're going to need SOME normal units, but the bulk of the army should be siege weapons); they keep the march going, and the more you have, the less often you'll have to pause to heal the injured ones. I don't care how many swordsmen you have, if you run into a walled/high culture city with only a few healthy cats left, you'll be stopped cold until those walls come down and make their longbows vulnerable, or unless you want to lose a ton of swordsmen.

I like your army Invisible, it sounds a lot like mine, except I don't Drill any siege weapons... that's for tanks imho. I tend to keep cats unpromoted until the last second, which gives me flexibility as to whether I need to barrage a little or go for CR upgrades. I also build a few spearmen early on but that's about it. My anti-mounted unit of choice is the war elephant, since it can do strong city attacks if necessary unlike spearmen. My healer unit is a fast unit (typically a chariot or horse archer) that I plan to promote to Medic III later on with a GG; it's a fast, weak unit so it can keep up with my future tanks if necessary and yet not be chosen the defender of the stack.

When I fight in the middle ages, CR trebuchets, barrage cats, and elephants make up the bulk of my attacking force, along with any veteran swords and axes of course, which I don't bother to upgrade to macemen or whatever because it's usually unnecessary (even CR I axemen straight out of the barracks, let alone veteran axes, can still kill heavily injured longbows with extremely high odds--no need to macemen them), and I don't want the drop in xp.. when the time is right and hopefully when at least some of them have CR III, I will upgrade to something more worthwhile (see below). I might build a pair of healer crossbowman or something to accompany them, but that's about it.

I think the math discussions in this thread are great. I totally agree with the "overwhelm the counter-units and then cut the soft underbelly" mindset. However, I always keep in mind is getting someone to level 6. I also take good care of my veteran CR III axemen, trying to let rookie CR I swordsmen take on the riskier assignments first. Then, when I get chemistry, my most veteran axemen turn into CR III grenadiers = total ownage in that era. Your leftover trebs and cats, a few riflemen as bodyguards and to garrison newly-capture cities, a healer unit, and your CR III grenadiers can take out pretty much any city that is not guarded by machine guns or stronger units.

I think you have confused my arguments on early war with those on later war. Sorry if my post misled.

Early war (during the time of swords/axes), my argument which was also picked up by others was that you should have lots of either swords or axes but not both. And normally axes will be better since you can often get them earlier and they are better if your opponent has metals.

For later war (catapults), I never made any recommendation to use axes and not swords. For a later war I would build:

- Suicide (barrage) catapults - maybe 20%
- City raider catapults (which I would use like axes, not for suiciding although some will sometimes lose battles) - maybe 45%
- Shock Axes - maybe 10%
- Healing spears - maybe 10%
- City raider swords OR elephants if I can - maybe 15% - for suicide attacking longbows on hills or for taking small cities with only 1 or 2 longbows.

I would not build city raider axes - they are obsolete unless you have highly promoted ones from previous wars, or don't have iron or elephants.

As for mopping up with catapults rather than swords, I don't think I lose more units this way. Say I suicide 3 catapults against maybe 4 longbows and a spear and a chariot.

In wiping out the remainder with swords, I will probably still take some losses. If the odds are up to 50-60% on the longbows then I will probably lose two swords.

In wiping out the remainder with catapults, I am more likely to lose the first one. But then I do another round of collateral damage as well. By the time the next catapult attacks, the odds are at least as good as they would be with swords. After that my catapults are attacking with better odds than the swords and will wipe out all the remaining defenders with no further casualties. Usually I go in a sequence of attacking:

- A couple of suicide cats (barrage)
- A sword against the top defender if necessary
- A couple of CR 1 catapults. Probably will lose one and the other might win or withdraw hopefully.
- My highly promoted CR 2-3 catapults that should win and gain further promotions.
- Drill catapults for mopping up without taking further damage. Stack defenders can also help mop up at this point to gain some xp.

Maybe its not perfect, but its pretty effective. Having lots of catapults means the war flows quickly - city defenses are taken down in a single turn and I always seem to have enough catapults on hand - when in previous games with fewer catapults, losing them always seemed to take the steam out of my attack.

Of course if you get to maces or knights it changes again - your city raiders can beat longbows more often and a CR 3 mace is hard to stop. But I don't find swords that much better than catapults to warrant building many of them. Their greater survivability isn't much compared to the versatility of the catapults.
 
Well, you considered going from 60% to 80% a factor.
So I considered going from 60% to 70% survival a factor, althoug a lesser one.
25% retreat is not negligible. Usually the retreaters end up promoted and a lot tougher.

I don't see how that changes anything. Given a choice between a swordsman who would probably win or a catapult which may win, retreat or die, assuming all the defenders have been weakened enough for swords to take them out, I would choose the swordsman. It's just more efficient that way.
 
We seem to have drifted from axes vs swords to cats vs swords but that's ok. A factor to consider is going to be the number of defenders; the more defenders there are the more collateral damage stacks up (and vica versa of course).
 
I don't see how that changes anything. Given a choice between a swordsman who would probably win or a catapult which may win, retreat or die, assuming all the defenders have been weakened enough for swords to take them out, I would choose the swordsman. It's just more efficient that way.

Not to mention the fact that by winning, they are getting promotions. Sure, if you win with the Cats, they'll get promotions too, but then I end up having to micromanage the next battle, because the AI will try and attack with those first (when they don't have a chance to win). I'd rather get the promotions with the Swords to ensure better mop-up odds.

Bh
 
We seem to have drifted from axes vs swords to cats vs swords but that's ok. A factor to consider is going to be the number of defenders; the more defenders there are the more collateral damage stacks up (and vica versa of course).

Well, I chipped in after reading someone say that you should not build swords at all. And so what if there are many defenders? Assume there are 6 archers and you have plenty of both swords and cats. If you wanna use cats all the way, you might have to sacrifice 4 cats before the others get realistic odds. If you use swords to mop up, however, you might have to sacrifice only 2.

Anyway, the difference between a sword and a catapult seems to widen as more CR promotions are accumulated. And I'm beginning to value scuicide Drill cats.
 
We seem to have drifted from axes vs swords to cats vs swords but that's ok.

This is a good point because the axe/sword decision is much more earlier than cats come into play.
Cats are extremely usefull IF combined with other units but they come too late for an early rush.
 
Axes vs swords doesn't always come much earlier than cats. It depends very much on your playing style and research paths. If you beeline iron (coz there's no copper around) then it becomes a sword v axe debate. However if you've got copper its probably not unusual to head for alphabet instead of IW and with tech-trading you can easily find yourself researching construction. You've probably traded for IW already but it then depends on whether you've got iron immediately available.
 
Axes vs swords doesn't always come much earlier than cats. It depends very much on your playing style and research paths. If you beeline iron (coz there's no copper around) then it becomes a sword v axe debate. However if you've got copper its probably not unusual to head for alphabet instead of IW and with tech-trading you can easily find yourself researching construction. You've probably traded for IW already but it then depends on whether you've got iron immediately available.

Pigswill has a gross name but wise words. I do the latter if I can. Alphabet is powerful and can help you get IW. I once got only horseback riding and a bit of gold from huts and wasn't thrilled, but the moment I got alphabet I became tech leader and got a whole raft of stuff for that lame-for-my-civ-in-that-game-but-yet-expensive horseback riding tech--including IW. I've had similar games but that one stands out because it was so hilarious to me to get great stuff for HBR, and trade for more great stuff. I'll never look at HBR the same way again.
 
You underestimate swords. They have the same raw strength as longbows and get that 10% city attack bonus as a little extra. CR swords are great at mopping up weakened longbows. They get, say, 80+% odds when a CR catapult would only get 60+% or less. That's a lot of difference.

And simply building more catapults to make up for it isn't always good. You would have to spend more hammers, pay more for unit costs and suffer higher WW from losing more units. When you are restricted by conditions on the higher levels, you have to be more efficient.

War weariness at this stage is easily dealt with. It never gets too high and Drama can obliterate it completely or I can use HR and keep weak units in my capital which is probably the only city where I will care about it.

Unit costs aren't an issue either - more units will just pay for themselves by finishing the war quicker. The only cost issue is how many cities I can afford to take. I will happily go to 0% science to fund a war.

As others have pointed out the survivability of cats is not that much less due to the withdraw chance. And the extra collateral damage means that later attacks are sure wins.

Hammer cost is probably an issue - you argue I will get more bang for my hammers by including more swords - and I can't disagree with that - you undoubtedly are more successful at the highest levels than I am. My own experience is that when I go to war without having enough cats I regret it and lose a lot more units in total as my war effort slows down. When I emphasize cats, my wars go faster and I lose fewer units in total due to the war being short and brutal on my opponent.

Probably including more swords might be more efficient - but if I build too many then I won't have enough cats and a sword cannot replace a catapult, whereas if I have too few swords the cats can step in.
 
War weariness at this stage is easily dealt with. It never gets too high and Drama can obliterate it completely or I can use HR and keep weak units in my capital which is probably the only city where I will care about it.

Not really, but maybe I'm seeing it from the perspective of Immortal, where things are a lot tighter.

InvisibleStalke said:
Unit costs aren't an issue either - more units will just pay for themselves by finishing the war quicker. The only cost issue is how many cities I can afford to take. I will happily go to 0% science to fund a war.

Same as above.

InvisibleStalke said:
As others have pointed out the survivability of cats is not that much less due to the withdraw chance. And the extra collateral damage means that later attacks are sure wins.

Cats survive maybe 1 out 8 times for me. That's not really worth considering.

InvisibleStalke said:
Hammer cost is probably an issue - you argue I will get more bang for my hammers by including more swords - and I can't disagree with that - you undoubtedly are more successful at the highest levels than I am. My own experience is that when I go to war without having enough cats I regret it and lose a lot more units in total as my war effort slows down. When I emphasize cats, my wars go faster and I lose fewer units in total due to the war being short and brutal on my opponent.

Probably including more swords might be more efficient - but if I build too many then I won't have enough cats and a sword cannot replace a catapult, whereas if I have too few swords the cats can step in.

I find that 6 siege weapons (cats and/or trebs) are generally enough to take a well defended enemy city without having to lose other units (except to bad luck). Just top up their numbers as the stack is healing.
 
Or maybe you don't remember the retreating catapults ;).
I just love it when my first catapult retreats, then the sceond wins at 10% odds :lol:.
Of course I laugh a lot less when my CR3 mace dies at 98,5% odds:mad: .

I do. I always watch catapult battles intently, hoping for that retreat (saves me from having to rebuild them). It just doesn't happen that often. I win at very low odds almost as often :lol:
 
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