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Babylonian Rifle Rush is back!

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Martin Alvito, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    The idea here is to exploit the free GS from Meritocracy, as well as the Babs' free GS, to duplicate the functionality of Scientific Revolution in the old Babylonian Rifle Rush. Research Agreements get you to Gunpowder, and from there two free bulbs will get you to Rifling.

    This is attractive for two reasons. First, it can be completed as early as turn 80 or so. Your opponents shouldn't have anything that can stay on the field with you for a long, long time. Second, you can stay small, let the AIs colonize the map and improve it, and then puppet like mad and win by Culture quickly.

    You can do this with anyone if you're willing to wait for about ten extra turns to block Chemistry, but the Babylonians are the fastest at this since you can get two Great Scientists without ever making a move to Education.

    1) Play a standard NC first start. The opening is up in the air right now with all the changes in the patch. IIRC, I went Scout -> Worker -> NC, buying the Library. The attached game was a little lame, since I found El Dorado. I threw that at a Cultural city-state to get Landed Elite ASAP.

    2) Tech order should be Pottery -> Writing -> luxuries -> Philosophy, unless you settled on something that can be Mined. Even then, my experience has been that you want to push Writing at present, unless you're going to deploy a Worker with nothing to do before Mining finishes.

    3) Once you have the NC up, you need to do some research and some blocking. You need to block the following:

    - Sailing
    - Trapping
    - Horseback Riding
    - Theology
    - Currency
    - Machinery

    and you also need to research Engineering, Iron Working and all prerequisites. Blocking Machinery is a pain because you have to research Engineering first.

    4) You also will need a minimum of four Research Agreements, so you'll need Scouts to find everyone.

    5) Finally, you'll need to secure a source of Iron so you can upgrade Warriors.

    6) Pick a target, insert Rifles in a very uncomfortable place (not the back of a Volkswagen) and pull the trigger until it goes "click".

    If you want to do this with anyone else, you'll need a delayed RA behind the first four, so that you have time to block Chemistry. Then you can collect Metallurgy with the RA and bulb Rifling. Songhai would be perfect for this approach, as the tripled pillage would let you upgrade an absolute horde of Warriors.
     

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  2. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Are you sure that RA blocking still works? It seems like I kept getting techs from RAs which should have been blocked.
     
  3. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Blocking HBR at this start stole 4 hammers per turn from you in capital alone :)
     
  4. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    I haven't checked the .xmls, but it feels like you need 30-33% of the tech to block it with 100% probability now.

    Sometimes we have to make sacrifices!
     
  5. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    yeah.. I think the block got changed recently.
     
  6. Hinenuitepo

    Hinenuitepo Chieftain

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    Ah, was wondering about that! Had several with 2-3 turns in that got RA'd. Will try to make sure to get a little deeper in to reliably block.
     
  7. ifinnem

    ifinnem Keep it interesting

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  8. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    After that. I was using the 25% block concept and still got some techs from RAs. Having more than 25% (assuming 33% now) seems to work.
     
  9. vexing

    vexing knows

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    what an absurd "fix"
     
  10. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    true. It'd be nice if you could have 99% done and still get the tech. (ok, that wouldn't be nice if it's the only tech you've worked on, but in general)

    Save people from trying to RA block everything.

    Though, really, RA blocking is one of the few things we can do to overcome the AIs super happy bonus which gives them multiple effective science bonuses.
     
  11. hellboy909

    hellboy909 Chieftain

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    Maybe so, but it's still irritating to have to micromanage techs so much.
     
  12. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    The problem with rifles is they are "melee", which means they actually have to move forward to attack a unit and then sit there with damage, leaving them wide open to a counter-attack. Depending on difficulty, that counter-attack will come in hordes.
     
  13. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    true, but I'll take a 25 base unit that was upgraded from a spearman/warrior vs. knights/etc any day. You just have to ensure not to lose them too often ;)
     
  14. grandad1982

    grandad1982 Deity

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    :lol:
     
  15. terrycrist3

    terrycrist3 Chieftain

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    I just did it on Immortal, though I certainly could have gone quicker.

    One thing that I did which should speed up the whole thing is to use Meritocracy to pop a GE and rush the Great Library. Not only do I get a free tech early (I used it on Iron Working), but with the Babylonian UA I got a GS (in addition to the free one from writing) in time to slingshot from Gunpowder to Rifling.

    My biggest problem is figuring out what units to build for the upgrade. If I build warriors, I'll have to find iron and if I build bowman, I'll have to get Machinery. Has Civ 5 always prevented you from leapfrogging upgrades? If I use spearmen, do I need Civil Service to make them pikemen first?

    They definitely rock though. My neighbor was still at swordsmen and catapults and was utterly defenseless against my columns of rifles.
     
  16. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    *nods* Yeah, you could easily use the GL that way, and it would speed things up by about a half dozen turns. Shame Songhai can't do that.

    Since you're grabbing early IW, the thing to do is spam Warriors. You need more than I deployed in the sample game if you want to reach a genuinely dominating position. By turn 130, I had brutally crushed Washington and turned the guns on Siam, since Rammy was starting to become a juggernaut. I was winning the war when I left on this trip, although things weren't proceeding as quickly as I would like against his elephants.

    Had I started with about a dozen Warriors and gone in both directions from the capital, things would have gotten very ugly very quickly. Five or six Rifles moving in each direction would have enabled me to knock over two opponents each with certainty, and it would be hard to screw up the game from that position.

    The only question remaining in my mind is whether it's worth passing the NC, deploying multiple Scouts, stealing Workers, REXing luxuries and trying to find everyone in order to max out on Research Agreements (rather than research costly techs) and deploy a massive Warrior horde for upgrades. I was a little sloppy in the sample game and lost a couple of Warriors. If I'd been a little smarter with SP usage and combat, I probably could have generated the needed horde from an NC first start.

    Alternately, you could just play Mongolia and accept the slower start as the price you have to play for Khans. Halving the healing breaks would be pretty hot, and eventually they'd be totally unnecessary.
     
  17. declanlee

    declanlee Chieftain

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    nice.

    But you can use the two GS to reach steel at turn 40-42, and you don't need that much RA two, what do you think.

    I mean a longsword man rush at 40 turns.
     
  18. terrycrist3

    terrycrist3 Chieftain

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    A Chinese Machinery slingshot that early would be pretty devastating too (you'd only get one GS though unless you could score the GL too). The one difference with any medieval rush though is that the AI will be quicker to catch up to you, so it's probably only good to clear out your closest neighbors (which is still pretty nice). With a rifle rush, it will be a long time before city defense gets too high, and by then you should have cannons to finish the job.
     
  19. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    It depends on the victory condition you're going for. If you want a Domination win, that will get you a few puppets with luxuries and a lot of space to settle additional troop depots.

    If you want to go for any other type of win, letting the AI colonize the map and then puppeting everything is probably going to be stronger. You've done a lot more towards clearing :c5science:, and although it's down the military line you need most of those techs to clear the Industrial bottleneck. Also, only settling two cities means that SPs will come in a hurry.
     
  20. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    I'd also say it's a 'skilldorado + culture ruin' luck game to get Steel in 40 turns. Culture ruin to get you closer to meritocracy and 'skilldorado' because the upgrades are going to cost you big money. (not to mention that you better have the iron in your cap)
     

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