Backstabbing

Ok I tried searching for this but don't find anything that applies so here goes...

Playing Isabella/Spain, pretty low level. Trying for the first time to go for cultural, so kept only 3 cities (even though I cornered off half the pangea)

Anohoo, friendly with everyone, then suddenly India America and Iroquois all declared war on me. Then in the history it says they "backstabbed" me.

What does that mean exactly? Is the AI smart enough to trick me into being friends then attack me together!?

 

short answer is, yes since they did.

 

Those bastards...

 

I always expect America to attack me for no reason

 

And then of coz after I vanquish all 3 of them, the onlookers tell me I'm not trustworthy... wtf?

 

Well, I wouldn't exactly say it's a strategy pre-planned and purposefully executed by the AI. It's more than likely a scenerio where the AI decided to become friendly with you early on and then later, for whatever reason, decided you were an immediate threat and declared war.

My last game was similar in that almost everyone (Terra map, large size) was "friendly" with me, even declaring our friendship publically. I literally made about 5 or 6 public declarations with the different AI civs, the first being Washington. Then all the sudden Washington denounced me (still remaining "friendly" to me, that never changed), which sparked a domino-effect of just about every other Civ denouncing me as well (most of whom I had publically declared friendship with about 10 turns earlier). Strange things happen in diplomacy.

 

Don't sign Declarations of Friendship with anyone, ever. They allow the AI to ask you for stuff. All your stuff sometimes.

If you say No, you get a Diplo hit.
If, on the other hand, you say Yes, you get nothing positive whatsoever.
Yet you can't ask them for the same things --- and hurt their Diplo if they say No.
And if you are Friends with anyone, someone else invariably hates them and denounces you.
If your Friend ever denounces you, you take a worldwide Diplo hit.

Nothing positive whatsoever comes from them, only increasingly negative things. This may sound like I'm just bashing something, but this is really how it works. Stupid mechanic that can only hurt you. Never be anyone's Friend. You'll wind up accruing slightly fewer negative Diplo modifiers that way.

 

There's an actual modifier for the AI called "loyalty". It has a bit of randomness to it, as in America might have a modifier of "5 plus or minus 2". The lower the number, the more likely they backstab friends if it means getting what they want. Some civs have a near 0 chance, and others have a much higher. You should take note of who backstabs you so you know if you can expect it in the future. Note that "not being their friend" doesn't lower the chances they'll attack you, all that loyalty seems to mean is they take your friendship less into account in seeing if you're a good target.

I find the best way to stop backstabbing from neighbors is to get into a Friendship with them, and find a common enemy to hate. Give them a different goal and then they won't go after you.

That's complete BS. I get gifts from DoWs, have proactively declared joint wars with DoWs, and have leveraged DoWs to get more "friendly" status with other civs all the time.

Of course there's negative things caused by a number of reasons that only happen in a DoW state (not helping out, not giving gifts, being friends with their enemies). You only usually see a denouncement if you're a complete ass to your friend. But if this didn't happen, they might as well label it "permanent alliance". The Declaration system is one of the few really dynamic things in Civ5 that makes sense past the initial 10-20 turns.

Without Declarations, we'd be back in the old days where the strongest civ declared war on their neighbor, and so on, and so on, and global politics wasn't affected by global politics. Now we see 3 on 3 civ alliance wars and other cool things happening. I've had a number of world wars break out which is something I've barely seen in previous civs or even pre-patch.

I'd say the global diplomacy is near the top of my small list that Civ5 has done right. It shouldn't be changed, it should just be tweaked.

 

Nope. Everything you say can happen without a DoF. None of the negative modifiers I mention can happen without a DoF. They do almost nothing* that you can't do without one, and cause a multitude of negative modifiers that can't happen if you didn't have them.

*There are actually a couple positive modifiers you can only get from DoF. Something like "We're friends," and "We have the same friends." But they eventually beget more negatives than you can ever get positives, which is what I said in the first place.

 

Alright, we just disagree then based on our own experiences.

 

I think you are being a bit jaded. Typically if I declare DoF with civs its for the long haul and I don't get these negative modifiers you are talking about. Sell the civs your excess luxuries, then they won't ask for them. Make sure you are in an "alliance" and not friends with both sides. Its really quite easy.

 

Hasn't happened for me. If you start winning, all Civs will hate you. DoF just give them more reasons to hate you, either directly or indirectly.

I'm sure it isn't exactly the same syntax but, here are the modifiers related to DoF that I know of:

Positive modifiers I'm aware of:
1. "We're friends."
2. "We have the same friends."

Negative modifiers I'm aware of:
1. "You didn't help us when we asked while friends."
2. "You are friends with our enemy."
3. "Your friends found reason to denounce you."
4. "You denounced your friend."
5. "You backstabbed your friend." (added 2-26)

the fourth is optional in that you don't have to do it... but it is a negative modifier if you do...
the fifth can easily happen if you picked up a Defensive Pact with someone who hates one of your friends (added 2-26)

That isn't jaded. It's simple math.

3 (and the potential for 4 5 (edited 2-26)) negative modifiers to 2 positive modifiers. Not to mention, the 3rd, and 4th 4th, and 5th (edited 2-26) negative modifiers I mentioned are always Global, they affect Diplomacy with every Civ every time they happen. And #3 isn't rare by any means, it's very, very, VERY common, at least on Emperor+. I can't speak for lower levels. So common you can almost always count on it happening. And I think there's yet another, but can't remember so I didn't put it in there. "You denounced OUR friend." I'm not sure about that one though.

The positive modifiers, by contrast, nearly always affect just the one Civ (your friend), and at most a couple of Civs, and then only if those couple have a "friendship circle."

This means that not only are there more negative modifiers, but they almost always have a broader impact. I stand by my statement. Don't EVER make a DoF, the potential positives are pitifully small... and the negatives are almost guaranteed AND more powerful (inasmuch as they affect your Diplo with more Civs).

 

I think I can agree... on my games (maybe warlords) it was always like that. I have virtually nothing positive other than the fact that we are called friends, but I keep getting demands of resources, especially America who ask for EVERYTHING i have. It's nuts. And then they backstab. That's why America is almost always my first elimination target whenever possible (then Rome coz their cities spawn like rats)

 

I had a few DoFs in my games, and only a few times did Gandhi ask me for stuff. Other times, I didn't notice much positive stuff anyway because they do denounce after a while when you're winning. It's completely unpredictable, and destroys immersion.

 

nevermind.

 

This games diplomacy is effed up so badly. I no longer even contact AI. They're really just there to attack. And since they don't attack back it works fine.

 

My last game, I had DoF with Inca for quite some time. Then, after joining them in a war and agreeing to all their requests, etc, they decided they wanted to denounce me. I had NO negative modifiers except "They have denounced us." I didn't even share a border with them. Eventually they declared war on me and after I captured their city-state ally and 2 of their cities, they begged for peace (but wouldn't give me anything but straight up peace). The diplomacy is completely FUBAR. I've had games where I was friends with everyone and then as I after I build the UN, they all declare war on me. The immersion level is not acceptable and it's because of the "ruthless" AI. All your friends will pretty much turn on you at some point.

 

Wow you seem to be getting really good diplomacy results (this is the most positive view on civ5 diplomacy I've seen) - what map type, size, level do you play, play style/victory conditions? I'm trying to get a better handle on what makes diplomacy tick.

I'm finding the diplomacy ok most of the time but quite flaky. I've had one game (small pangea) where its all gone wrong with friend backstab followed by chain denouncements like alot of people get. I also had one game (tiny continents) that was ended in a lets all be friends lovefest.

Is the trick to make sure your friends are always busy fighting someone else?

 

The trick is mainly to not be winning. Other than that, you may get lucky and randomly get some Random AI behavior variables that mean they're all over friendly, but probably not very often.

Like I said above, I find it to be much less trouble if you just don't even bother with DoF's. In fact, I usually found it best to just view each AI as a slobbering idiot who deserves to die for even daring to presume that it could run an empire.

It actually made me angry for AI's to say things like "Unacceptable, I am a sovereign... yada yada" to any demands I might make. It literally offended me. I'd even rage a little bit at it. I'm like, "You disgust me. You are not a sovereign, you don't even deserve to be speaking to me as if you are my equal. You are less than a toilet scrubber, you are a simpering excuse for an AI that couldn't beat a 2 year old at Scrabble. You are a slobbering idiot. Prepare to die."

This seems to be the best course of action, in my experience.

 

To find that friendly America can "see" that I just finished my second silver mine before I do, and have the guts to ask for it, before I even know if I can trade it or not....is BS!

Then he goes sooky very quickly, when denied and soon hates me and denounces me. And the ball keeps on rolling to other civs. Just a junk implementation.

I have had games when everything is nice in diplo, but at least to find a reason, let me decide if I finished that mine first, ok? THEN, I can consider if giving it away for 30 turns is worth it, or if I better sell it.