Balance - The "Wide vs Tall" Problem

Also, if you guys want the balance patch to be merely a number adjustment, then just tell me right now as I will completely lose interest in the project. I understand the comfort idea being too much for you but there is no way to balance the game right now without actively changing how things work rather than just replacing numbers.

I'll quote myself:

I'd like to see us get a v1 out the door before we starting adding a ton of new content anyways.

I'm not saying this isn't going to happen, but rather we have a lot of basic changes and additions (porting over CEP's changes being focus #1) to solve before we start adding new content. Trying to add CEP's changes AND do a completely new happiness mechanic all at the same time is just too much for such a small development team (esp. since I'm the only c++ workers right now). Don't get frustrated – part of the process of developing a mod is compromise. Having a 'my way or the highway' approach to design input isn't terribly useful for any of us. We're all throwing out ideas, and we've all had ideas batted down.

G
 
... Let's see what we can do with the current system.

I'll do one last attempt to scavenge whatever I can from the comfort system and apply it to existing game logic.


Happiness penalties stay the same, but you get no :c5unhappy: per city.

Each following factor will give you -1 :c5unhappy::

  • Every city with a lower :c5culture: output per :c5citizen: than required;
  • Every city with a lower :c5strength: per :c5citizen: than required;
  • Every city with a lower :c5gold: output per :c5citizen: than required;
  • Every city not connected to the capital;
  • Every city with enemies within city borders;
  • Every starving city.

So you no longer get a generic "3 unhappiness per city" - you get penalties for actually failing to keep your city prosperous. In other words if you manage well you can get no unhappiness per city, but otherwise you can get up to a devastating +6 unhappiness per city.

And most importantly this hurts wide empires more than small ones. Not to mention this opens up for social policies changes - for example, Honor can mitigate effects of unhappiness from conquered cities, which with these new penalties will be more crippling.



There you go, it's as simple as it gets. I literally cannot think of a simpler way to achieve this under the current system.

If even this is too complicated/custom for you, I give up. There's no point brainstorming for a balance patch if it shies away from changing an unbalanced, needlessly arbitrary system.
 
@Wodhann

Let me put it another way.

It is nigh on impossible to 'balance' anything in a purely hypothetical framework, we will need to actually play with something to see how these adjustments fit.
To get a version 1 out into the wild, albeit in a somewhat primitive state, will help the whole process immensely. Trust me, being able to actually have the game running in front of you is a big help. I have been, and will be for another few weeks, unable to even get to my game computer, just a phone, as you can imagine not being able to try out the new changes first hand is a pain!!! Now duplicate that situation for everyone that has to read your ideas, and all the ideas for that matter, and just visualise how they play out in game. Impossible, we need to actually see, feel and experience these changes. It may transpire that the first draft changes may reveal an absolutely game-breaking design flaw that renders this entire idea useless, imagine if we spent weeks/months tossing back and forth ideas and then we found that out, what a waste of time that would be.

Like G, I find some of your ideas interesting, so don't feel stifled. Keep 'em coming. There is plenty of room for all types of ideas.

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First of all I disagree with that approach, in fact to me it doesn't make any sense.

How are you going to "soft balance" the game first, and then start introducing more fundamental changes that affect all changes you made so far? There is no middle ground between them, you have to first apply the biggest change and then balance the rest of the game with it in effect.

That's as if you started painting an ocean, and instead of starting with blue on a white canvas you would start with a bit of light grey or beige, then start rendering with darker tones down to the last detail until at one point you finally decide to apply the blue paint over everything, and have to start again.

Second, my latest idea is pretty straightfoward. About as simple as it can get given the vanilla happiness system.
 
This idea is actually not very straightforward. For the same reasons I outlined before.

1) Because it requires us to teach a bunch of things for the AI to do in order to manage a system that at present it only has to juggle 4 things instead of 8 or 9. It's possible we could do that, but I'm not convinced of that. If we can't get the AI to figure it out, then the entire idea isn't going to get off the ground. It doesn't matter how simple and elegant it looks on paper.

2) Because it says nothing about inputs of happiness (luxuries, buildings, policies, beliefs, CS, natural wonders) and outputs of any surplus (golden ages? bonuses?), it's not even a complete idea. It's a very elegant and interesting idea for happiness as a cost. It is not a completed and simple system that we know we could deploy and make work. It would be a system that we would have to test, and re-balance and play with to season to taste. It's a completely different structure than what we have now, and as such will play differently for player psychology and strategies. That may be desirable as an end goal, but many players may not find it desirable or a complete fix, etc. We won't know until that bridge is crossed how it would work in the wild, so to speak. But we have a practical objection before we even get there (see above).

If your argument is that unless we completely overhaul a core function of the game then the game is broken, you might be right in making that statement, we may all agree with you about that fact and be relatively pleased by your approach and that still doesn't mean it should become step 1. It means there's a core feature that we should have to address in some way, but possibly by making several soft changes for now such that it is less egregiously broken, seeing if that helps "enough", and then coming back to it as a more severe change or as a separate mod-mod project that builds on and over top of what is done otherwise if it does nothing to redress the balance.
 
This idea is actually not very straightforward. For the same reasons I outlined before.

1) Because it requires us to teach a bunch of things for the AI to do in order to manage a system that at present it only has to juggle 4 things instead of 8 or 9. It's possible we could do that, but I'm not convinced of that. If we can't get the AI to figure it out, then the entire idea isn't going to get off the ground. It doesn't matter how simple and elegant it looks on paper.
The AI has to manage as much presently as a human does: culture, gold and city defense are all things the AI naturally builds. I don't see why it would impact the AI that much honestly.

2) Because it says nothing about inputs of happiness (luxuries, buildings, policies, beliefs, CS, natural wonders) and outputs of any surplus (golden ages? bonuses?), it's not even a complete idea. It's a very elegant and interesting idea for happiness as a cost. It is not a completed and simple system that we know we could deploy and make work. It would be a system that we would have to test, and re-balance and play with to season to taste.
Then let's do that.

We need to start somewhere, and as I said before, you apply the bigger changes first and then move on to the details, not the other way around.

It's a completely different structure than what we have now
It removes flat unhappiness from cities and replaces it with one that scales according to different factors based on certain standards. It's not a completely different structure, it just replaces a poor aspect with a more sophisticated one.

If your argument is that unless we completely overhaul a core function of the game then the game is broken, you might be right in making that statement, we may all agree with you about that fact and be relatively pleased by your approach and that still doesn't mean it should become step 1. It means there's a core feature that we should have to address in some way, but possibly by making several soft changes for now such that it is less egregiously broken, seeing if that helps "enough", and then coming back to it as a more severe change or as a separate mod-mod project that builds on and over top of what is done otherwise if it does nothing to redress the balance.
This applies to my previous idea, but this final - I'm not sure if I should even call incarnation, since there's so little of it left now - iteration isn't even a complete change of the system, it's just changing how you get unhappiness from number of cities to a less arbritary, stupidly simplistic one.
 
You know, if this idea was presented with some working code this whole thing would be moot. As G is basically the only one at the moment doing the coding, perhaps we should be more mindful of his choices. I see no problem with trying out something simple first.
Of course that's just my opinion. By that I am not implying ideas with attached code will automatically be added, just easier to examine.

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Wodhann, I think part of the problem is that it's a problem that really bothers you. It's understandable and fine, but it's not the only problem, especially on the coding side of things (especially with only Gazebo and whoward working on it).

Remember the recent(-ish) survey on reddit, which shows that tall vs. wide... actually plays out in a way that the majority of people play tall-ish, meaning playing tall is viable for a lot of people.

Yes, that is less true for MP, that is less true as you go into the high difficulties... but it means for a lot of people it's not a completely game-wrecking thing, but one of many niggles.

Plus, the patch is a balance patch, a patch tries to be as minimal as possible in addressing things. At least let people test out how much could be done without introducing new subsystems before adding new subsystems - at least it will give people a better feel for the numbers and how far they are off. Feature creep is always a danger.
 
I really think you folks are overestimating the complexity of the latest iteration. Read it again, you might have glossed over it thinking it's as game-changing as the last one but it's not - it's just changing the "number of cities" unhappiness flat constant to a more dynamic checklist style penalty. Basically, 3 :c5unhappy: per city becomes 0 - 6 :c5unhappy:. I'm not rewriting the Constitution here guys. Sure this affects balance as a whole, even if a little bit, but for the 1000th time, you can't balance the game without changing some basic aspects.
 
I am going to ask the question....should wide and tall actually be balanced?

If we look at the civilization series as a whole, and in general the vast majority of 4x games....there is no tall vs wide balance....wide is the way to go, bigger is better.

Now...many 4x games add in mechanics to ensure expansion is regulated, so that you are not dedicating half of your cities to expansion all the time, but in general the understanding is that expanding is good.

If we look back to Civ 4, wide was ultimately the way to go. Now because of the way the economy work, you could not expand like a madman. It was setup in a way that a small civ could compete with a larger one for a time, so that you didn't have to expand nonstop. But bottom line, at some point you wanted to get your civ to be big if you wanted to really compete to the end.

And...is that really wrong? Civ 5 is the first 4x game I played that really tried to make make having 3-4 cities the entire game ok...and it applies some very strong hammers to do so (penalties to tech, culture, happiness, harder access to national wonders).

Is that ultimately what we want out of the game?



Ok, so now that I've said that piece, assuming we do want some kind of balance between the two, how do we do it?

Most are arguing that we make continuing adjustments to allow tall and wide to compete with each other....in the same playing field. Ultimately I wonder if that is a self destructive exercise.

I want to consider a page out of Civ 4's playbook. Cultural victory in Civ 4 was an interesting victory condition, in that a tall and a wide civ were both generally equally competitive at it. Now sure, going wide gave you lots of other advantages, but when it came down to the actual winning of a cultural victory...wide and tall were generally competitive.


So...maybe the better answer is to focus on the victory conditions themselves. Can we setup victory conditions that favor tall civs without having to radically alter base yields and mechanics?
 
^what he said too. I'm not sure the approach (either wodhann's or any generally proposed idea) is designed to make tall equal to wide, but rather to put more than just a speed bump in front of going wide such that staying tall remains a viable option for longer but isn't dominating and strong either.

Other than domination, victory conditions should be obtainable through either strategy.
 
I'm all about fun with enough balance to keep the fun. If going wide is better and I have more fun with tall which I do I'm going tall. Not that my two cents amount to much. :P I guess what I'm trying to say is don't forget were all here to have fun. :)
 
I'm going to comment on the two most popular ideas I read in this thread.

Scaling Luxuries based on total population: I like the concept. Its simple and elegant, and seems to focus on the concept that right now luxuries are a wide favored mechanic.

I think it will be tricky to find the sweet spot mathwise. Ultimately it may need to be more than a simple math formula. For example, +1 happiness per 10 global population may be too simplistic, it may need to be something like:

Global Pop: (completely made up numbers to illustrate the point).
1-10: +3
11-30: +4
31-60: +5

Minimum Population Numbers as a Prereq:

Ultimately I don't see the need for this and I think its too much of a "stick" approach to balancing.

An important thing to remember is that when it comes to yields, %benefits favor tall, and +X benefits favor wide.

If I have a building that provides 20% X, than 1 copy of that in a 20 pop city is generally better than 4 copies in size 5 cities (especially when adding in the hammer and maintenance costs of those 4 copies).

So if there are buildings that are "too good" when built everywhere, we could consider toning down their base benefit and adding in a strong scaling benefit.



That said, I honestly don't find that the case right now in my gameplay. Frankly, my small cities have so few hammers that building the late game buildings takes forever. I can rush buy them, but that's a lot of gold down the drain, and I still get less benefit than when I built them in my uber cities.
 
I'm all about fun with enough balance to keep the fun. If going wide is better and I have more fun with tall which I do I'm going tall. Not that my two cents amount to much. :P I guess what I'm trying to say is don't forget were all here to have fun. :)

This has been a point I've been concerned about itself for a while. If it isn't "fun" to expand, even though expanding seems to be usually a better strategy (but not always), then the central problem isn't really making "wide" less viable but making the psychology of going wide less problematic so more people do it rather than sit tight with fewer cities. Eg, make it fun to be bigger too.

Right now, especially later game expansion/conquest is effectively adding a lot of tedium, and late-game victory conditions do the same (little engagement from culture or diplomatic wins).
 
I am going to ask the question....should wide and tall actually be balanced?
Yes, it should.

In short: The problem with wide is one, a competitive problem. A game has to be balanced around the competitive scene, if you base it around the casual players you end up with a game with mechanics that are too easy to exploit, as you cater to the visceral whims of the people who only want a soft ride when choosing their own personal style of gameplay. Take a game like DOTA or League of Legends for example: if designers nerfed every champion/hero that frustated the newbies, these games would end up being very unbalanced for serious players.
And the second is a game concept one - going wide should have pros and cons, but right now the only con is psychological one, if you disregard speedbumps. There's no real action>consequence dualism from the choice of going tall or wide - wide is "tall +" right now.

About the comments on going tall being more "fun", that's a matter of taste. Some aggressive players may think it's more fun to have a sprawling, dominating empire. You can't base game design decisions on what some amount of players consider more fun.
 
Random thought:


Settlers now cost :c5food: instead of :c5production:, stops growth during production and resets the birth count towards a new :c5citizen: when it's completed.​


It reinforces the whole "a settler is a moving citizen" and makes them a more costly decision as far as growth management is concerned. In other words, rather than "producing" a settler you're basically "growing" one.

This also helps us towards the path of getting rid of the flat happiness "number of cities speedbump" in favor of impactful and intelligent factors.
 
And the second is a game concept one - going wide should have pros and cons, but right now the only con is psychological one, if you disregard speedbumps. There's no real action>consequence dualism from the choice of going tall or wide - wide is "tall +" right now.

My point was, that until Civ 5 there was no gamestyle choice between Tall and Wide, the concept didn't really exist. There was only the pace of expansion, how fast you expanded was your consideration, not whether you expand or not.

We basically created this concept of "Tall" and then decided it had to be balanced.

To show an analogy, a player might argue "I want to play Civ 5 but with almost no science". Currently that playstyle is not supported in the game. Now sure you can play games with differing amount of science, but if you play with no science you are pretty much going to lose. So do we now need to balance the game around a no science playstyle? I would argue we don't.


But I don't want to argue too much, I do want to keep this constructive, so here are a few more thoughts:

Firstly, I am working the problem with the idea of "slowing" expansion, not of "stopping it". Bottom line is, if you want a 3 city empire to be equal to a 10 city one, then the 3 city empire has to get something that the 10 city empire DOES NOT get, or that you apply such a strong hammer to bigger empires that you begin to make expansion not fun.

To me, true equivalency can only be reached through victory conditions. Tall and Wide cannot compete in the same arenas, they need to compete in different ones.


So how do we slow the incentive for expansion?

When I add a Civ to my empire, I actually lose quite a bit:

1) The culture output for my entire civ is reduced by 10% (from a social policy standpoint).
2) The science output for my entire civ is reduced by 5%.
3) -3 Happiness
4) Cost of the settler (whether is money or the lost growth/hammers).
5) Increased difficulty to make national wonders.

In return, I gain the following:

1) An immediate increase in tiles of control.
2) +2 food/+1 (+2 on a hill) hammers. Effectively a "free population".
3) Access to potential strategic/luxury resources.
4) Ability to make multiple copies of the same building.
5) Potentially faster growth (Two Size 3 cities require 78 food, one Size 6 city requires 171 food).


I'm ignoring all of the benefits around policies and faith for now, lets just start with the core mechanics. Lets just take a quick look at some ideas around these core concepts:

First lets attack the costs:

1) Increase the Culture and Science penalty for expanding. A commonly discussed idea, and not my favorite. I really really really hate this "hammer" approach to expansion, and would prefer to leave this alone.

2) Adjust the -3 happiness for a new city. Also one commonly adjusted. An easy change, it won't fix any problems but its a way to polish the numbers.

3) Change the settler to be food only for production. The idea here is to create a bigger hit to the growth bottom line. Right now, I can build a settler out of a high hammer city (and I usually do) and effectively create population out of hammers. By making settlers require food, it is still food = population. That combined with the loss of growth while a settler is in production means the free population for a new city is a little less free.

Of course we can also consider the old idea of just removing a population from a city when a settler is produced there. Its been used in Civ before, and in many other 4x games.

Now a few ideas around the benefits:

1) Adjust the base yield of the city. This one has also been used frequently. What inevitably happens is you have trouble balancing the need to give a new city enough resource to get off the ground while not giving it so much that Wide becomes automatic. My recommendation is to leave the base yield alone and focus on other areas.

2) Adjust the luxury resource benefit. Already proposed, I think its a good idea. Wide gains more luxuries, but Tall could gain more benefit from them.

3) Adjust buildings to be a stronger %yield, and a weaker base (+X yield). Basically you reduce the benefit of multiple copies of the same building. Done many times, its polish would have to occur when buildings are discussed.

4) Adjust the growth mechanics so that higher populations require less food.

I haven't seen this one discussed much so I'm going to focus on it.

If you strip other considerations and just look at the core, small cities grow faster than large ones unless large cities focus on extra food. That right there may actually be the primary reason that wide cities are better. Its not that Wide cities get more happiness (because as has been pointed out, extra happiness is not that big an advantage right now). It is because Wide cities can use them! They simply have more people, so they gain more stuff.


If the growth mechanic was changed to limit this effect, than a few large cities could obtain a similar population to several small ones. Wide civs would still have the ability to control happiness better (which I think makes sense, it mirrors the "overcrowding" idea of megacities) but it lets Tall compete on a pure population game.
 
Random thought:


Settlers now cost :c5food: instead of :c5production:, stops growth during production and resets the birth count towards a new :c5citizen: when it's completed.​

Well Wodhann, even though we disagree on a few things, its eerie that we both posted near the same idea at the same time!
 
Yeah. I think I'm a wizard now.

Anyway, I'm glad you didn't argue about the "civ is about expanding" point too further. Too me, Civilization is all about choices, and if you have a single no-brainer strategy it trims down the number of alternative strategies. Plus, if you want to play a more "antiquated" style of gameplay, you can always play the older civ games.

Your post is very constructive, although as I hammered upon over and over again, I still think some more fundamental changes are due - things like the settler change which changes the way some things work, rather than juggling numbers.
 
I'm amazed that settler idea hasn't been floated before, seems like a good way to go.

@Wodhann
I re-read your idea and I am coming round to it, could have merit I think. Glad you stuck to your guns on that.

So if I am looking at these ideas correctly, we should be:
1) moving to change how the unhappiness factor for new cities is generated and
2) change the method of production costs for new cities (ie making settlers via food not hammers)

Is that right?


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