Balancing weak traits

[Orion Pax]

I seem to be necroing posts so...

I would actually prefer to see CRE become a trait that's actually useful for accumulating a lot of culture, rather than quick border pops, so my preference would be to change that trait more to something like +1 culture/city, +10% culture/city, or something like that.

I really dig this idea. While yes I value CRE for rexing, something that builds more culture seems right. 10% is modest enough but rewards culture building. Could probably keep the base at +2 with the +10% and it still would be fair?

I will say though, Pericles’ UB, the Odeon, is half-priced as CRE leader and gives +2 , +3 , and 2 Artist slots all at a crucial time with an important tech. Not too shabby especially towards curltural victory.

IMP seems in real need of upgrade as many have pointed out.. Settler bonus seems much less useful after early rexing and it only bonuses s not s. Both should get the bonus. Another good suggestion has been adding a non-military imperialistic benefit, i.e. economic? Perhaps half-price Customs Houses? Or domestic trade routes 2X in value?

 

[sampsa]

I wouldn't make CRE any better, it's borderline OP in some situations as it is. PRO is the only trait that really needs something (oh and overflow into still works in BUFFY... ). I'd certainly welcome IMP getting some small bonus, but half-priced customs house is still pretty much a pile of poop. Half-priced jail? Still very underwhelming of course...

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Imperialistic could get half priced Monuments and Protective +1 Espionage in all cities?

 

[sampsa]

Protective +1 Espionage in all cities?

Sounds fun, and would make PRO a strong trait already I guess.

 

[ArchGhost]

IMP seems in real need of upgrade as many have pointed out.. Settler bonus seems much less useful after early rexing and it only bonuses s not s. Both should get the bonus. Another good suggestion has been adding a non-military imperialistic benefit, i.e. economic? Perhaps half-price Customs Houses? Or domestic trade routes 2X in value?

The thing about that though, is the theme of the IMP trait is aggressive expansion -- imperialism. When expansion is over it makes sense that you only have the aggression part left. Giving it economic help is turning it into more eclectic than that purpose. The idea itself is solid (an extensive empire should offer some lucrative benefit) but not sure how it should be implemented, given that ORG and FIN already kind of have that cornered.

Thinking along the lines military, what about something like reduced unit upkeep/upgrade cost/cities support more free units? That way an IMP leader can fund the conquering legions more easily but not necessarily anything else.

I like the cheap monument idea for sure (seems like that shoulda been half-price already somewhere, like SPI trait) but that also makes it less distinct from CRE's early game advantages.

 

[Fippy]

+100% GG rate is actually underrated, as they can turn average rush forces into really good ones.

Best would be if all traits have similar bonuses that are not always perfectly useful esp early,
so tuning Phi, Cre etc down instead would make the game better imo.
More buffed traits adds advantages for us against AIs, not what i'd be looking for.

 

[Orion Pax]

The thing about that though, is the theme of the IMP trait is aggressive expansion -- imperialism. When expansion is over it makes sense that you only have the aggression part left. Giving it economic help is turning it into more eclectic than that purpose. The idea itself is solid (an extensive empire should offer some lucrative benefit) but not sure how it should be implemented, given that ORG and FIN already kind of have that cornered.

Thinking along the lines military, what about something like reduced unit upkeep/upgrade cost/cities support more free units? That way an IMP leader can fund the conquering legions more easily but not necessarily anything else.

Ah I like that a lot - reduced unit upkeep. I do think IMP trait is both aggression and empire focused though, especially given the settler bonus also? The Customs House idea is less enticing to me, but the bonus for in-empire trade routes is still seems interesting - it rewards conquest because it’s about establishing control over trade. It would dovetail with Mercantilism well (which needs a buff anyway), which would be fitting. Your point about similarity with traits like ORG & FIN is taken though.

Oh and PRO getting a bonus seems right. Could make it defensive even?

 

[cseanny]

Oh and PRO getting a bonus seems right.

Pray Sitting Bull doesn't show up in your games!!

 

[Orion Pax]

Pray Sitting Bull doesn't show up in your games!!

Haha.. too true. Defensive though, the bonus should be, like: Missions against you cost +10% more or something.

 

[AcaMetis]

I always thought PRO could use something like +1, being focussed on defending their land and keeping it safe. It wouldn't be overly powerful early game (less bonus than Financial, surely), but later on it'd encourage securing (and being, you know, protective of) a Vassal so you can run Mercantilism while maintaining foreign trade routes. PRO would also be better if it's two cheap buildings weren't so unreliable - the defensive bonus doesn't apply if you're defending against Gunpowder units, both buildings are eventually obsoleted by tech, and if you obsolete Walls (Rifling) before you obsolete Castles (Economics) you won't be able to freely build the latter anymore because they require Walls that you can no longer build.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Spiritual is one of the best warmonger traits in the game

 

[rah]

I think those that consider it weak don't know how to use it right.

 

[Orion Pax]

^Agreed. Don’t think it should have been included in the original post.

Spiritual gives incredible flexibility throughout the game, allowing you to maximize empire-wide benefits for what you need when you need it. The building bonus also has upward potential given how many temples you can build, either for quick / or for Cathedrals.

 

[rah]

AP temples are nice, but I'm usually trying to destroy it. Even though I'm learning how to better deal with it. (thanks to the experts here)

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Oh gawd... not another "balance the traits" thread...

Yes and I just necro-ed this thread after literally YEARS!

I would change AGG and PRO.

AGG should get half-priced stables instead of barracks. Their siege should get free barrage promotion, instead of melee.

PRO should get half-priced bunkers and bomb-shelters as well. They need something after walls and castles go obsolete.

 

[rah]

Pro should just start with archery and an archer instead of a warrior. Not much but at least its at the beginning where everything means more.

 

[sampsa]

Pro should just start with archery and an archer instead of a warrior. Not much but at least its at the beginning where everything means more.

Interesting, though maybe borderline OP due to worker steals.

 

[6K Man]

I find these threads a bit interesting because they often illustrate how the opinion of various traits has evolved over time. Or how lower-level players might not grasp the value of some traits (e.g. Spiritual).

They certainly offer more value than the "Which is better, Civx or Civy" threads or the "Teh AI is cheating" threads, which are done to death (and flat out nonsensical, usually) by now.

 

[drewisfat]

One thing that's always struck me about PRO that I never see mentioned is how it's the most resource dependent trait. Most people would say that's IND cuz of marble and stone, and some might say it's AGG for copper rushes. But no, it's totally PRO and I'll explain.

The whole theory behind what PRO is supposed to help you do is turtle and espionage. The turtling part is obvious (cheaper walls, castles, better archers). Espionage may be less obvious, but consider that drafting works very well with PRO as you conserve your promotions on gunpowder units. Drafting comes from Nationhood, aka +25% espionage. Also (small point) drafting leads you to get a Globe Theater up giving you a GA point and three slots for running GAs. (Artists are important for EE and this is one way to grab them). On top of this, castles are half price (+25% esp), and two PRO leaders have courthouse UBs, pushing you towards building something that boosts espionage and making a CoL rush more palatable (founding your own religion is important for EE if you don't plan on conquering a holy city).

What buildings help turtling, espionage, or both? The Great Wall first and foremost, walls, castles, Kremlin, West Point, Pyramids (rep boosts SE which EE is a subset of, and police state is helpful if you're stuck in a war), and for completeness' sake, chicken pizza. ALL of those get production bonus from stone. Great Wall in particular is prohibitively costly without stone in BFC (ideally settling on top of it). If you do have stone, all this espionage economy nonsense works quite well. I mean you won't get a HoF time unless you're culture laming, but you have a path for winning very challenging maps. But you need stone for it to be competitive with just playing normally, outside of an AW or NTT game. You can still transition into a hybrid EE around the Nationalism/Constitution/Democracy era which are all in a row and help espionage. However, with the exception of the drafting consideration, PRO isn't pushing you towards this, and it's not as strong as if you had been investing into GSpies and had planned on which city to steal techs from since the beginning of the game.

 

[Kaiman]

At 0xp you get Drill1 giving you 2XP worth of promos
At 2xp you get Drill1+2 which is worth 3XP more than than non-pro
At 5XP you get Drill1+2+3 which is worth 5XP more than non-pro.
and so on...

In practice you are getting the LAST promotion free and that is potentially worth a lot more than 2XP.

Although that's only true if you're right at the promotion level. Sometimes you're getting no promotion at all free if you're in-between milestones, right?