Banned Exploits - Discussion

[The Pilgrim]

chukownu and Moriarte made some good points and pretty much summed up why at least I'm not interested in participating on HoF as it is. I like the rules, they are a good guideline and I've been playing by them. But to waste a lot of time to reroll for an awesome start when I barely find time to play the game and when after a few years of playing the game, the regular start rarely even gives a challenge to beat the map all that rerolling seems like a waste of time.

Ironically all HoF participants unanimously hate rerolls, yet everyone keeps rerolling. I wish we lived in a perfect world where we could decide to stop doing that. The results would've been a little less magnificent, but so much time and energy saved...
Atm all I can say is hats off to the guys who are hungry enough to roll 200 maps. Doesn't even matter how skilled they are. As far as I am concerned, dedication alone is a sufficient reason to grant them medals and fame.

I think GOTM has wider audience cause everything is allowed although there is no real competition.
Even reloading is allowed, look at GOTM 58, 10:32 game play and 60 sessions...

Not many people realize that, therefore I think rerolls play a bigger part in HoF's lesser popularity.

 

[Moriarte]

Ironically all HoF participants unanimously hate rerolls, yet everyone keeps rerolling. I wish we lived in a perfect world where we could decide to stop doing that. The results would've been a little less magnificent, but so much time and energy saved...
Atm all I can say is hats off to the guys who are hungry enough to roll 200 maps. Doesn't even matter how skilled they are. As far as I am concerned, dedication alone is a sufficient reason to grant them medals and fame.


Not many people realize that, therefore I think rerolls play a bigger part in HoF's lesser popularity.

What you dream of would be possible under slightly different format. Like, you start civ5, press 'play current gauntlet'. After you finish, your save is automatically uploaded to HOF. Can't reload and replay, obviously. Just fantasizing.

 

[The Pilgrim]

What you dream of would be possible under slightly different format. Like, you start civ5, press 'play current gauntlet'. After you finish, your save is automatically uploaded to HOF. Can't reload and replay, obviously. Just fantasizing.

Are you saying willpower alone is not enough?

Seriously, though, it's doable if all of us come to agreement. There is no point in playing a bad start, but you also don't need to reroll 200 times to get a good and playable one. Everyone will benefit from dropping this stupid habit. A man can dream...

 

[sanabas]

There's a lot more to HOF than simply the gauntlets. Plenty of opportunities to get #1 times, high scores, medals, etc, without lots of rerolls.

 

[The Pilgrim]

There's a lot more to HOF than simply the gauntlets. Plenty of opportunities to get #1 times, high scores, medals, etc, without lots of rerolls.

Until someone wants to rewrite your record.

 

[Peets]

Until someone wants to rewrite your record.

Then you still have silver or bronze

 

[pkf]

I think GOTM has wider audience cause everything is allowed although there is no real competition.
Even reloading is allowed, look at GOTM 58, 10:32 game play and 60 sessions...

For the record, I assume GOTM staff has reacted because the same player's submission for GOTM 59 is missing from the results list. Moreover, deducting from a single incident that reloading is allowed (or not frowned upon) is too bold for my taste, as is the implication that fewer rules attract a wider audience.

 

[Merenptah]

I think GOTM has wider audience cause everything is allowed although there is no real competition.
Even reloading is allowed, look at GOTM 58, 10:32 game play and 60 sessions...

I wouldn't jump to conclusions without knowing the facts, and they are not related to crashes but the fact that I've been playing in an environment where it is frowned upon and just have to kill Civ whenever I feel there is a risk that a colleague/superior/subordinate might approach my workspace. Of course I have to do work most of the time, so whenever I play it will be just for a few turns (until either bad conscience or risk awareness kick in). It goes in waves, but the past few weeks have been bad. At home I don't play (family issues), so it's nigh impossible for me to block out an hour or longer just to play Civ, and I really envy others that can (still) do that.

In any case, have you actually read my write up? If I was replaying don't you think that the most obvious thing would have been to go back and select Piety when I clicked Rationalism by mistake in a Culture Victory type of game. And have you noticed that I have not done any prebuild for Utopia; not because I don't know how it works but because I feel it is a weird mechanic not consistent with the spirit of the game. Still, I don't mind others doing it as long as it's clearly stated. Also, this particular game had huts disabled (which is one of those things that can be exploited by frequent reloads), and I have expressed myself strongly in favour of keeping these disabled in the future as well.

Now more on topic: I think GOTM should be for "comparative" gameplay rather than "competitive" gameplay like HOF. The two concepts are not entirely the same, as the learning factor is the most important element in a comparative game. So, medals should go to best write up and not best time in GOTM I think. To have both in the same forum causes inconsistencies because some competitive players might be incentivized not to reveal some really relevant steps in their approach just to keep an edge. At the same time, others might feel compelled to use some method that they are not comfortable with (prebuild, gpt/dow, etc.) just to keep up with the rest. In a comparative game that is a non-issue as long as people clearly state this (such as that they stole a worker and then got a favourable peace for gold deal, etc.).

Stilll, what puzzles me the most with HoF rules is that people do not start with the same save. Surely, having desert and three salts will have a larger long-term impact than milking gold from the AI; not to mention that since patch I've found that on Emperor and below there wasn't much gold to milk from the AI at all, and on higher levels I simply wouldn't dare to do it as I am really bad at early war and I think it can backfire big time on Immortal/Deity. In other words, I do think there is some Risk vs. Reward balance, and if someone thinks he can get away with it then good luck!

 

[Peets]

For the record, I assume GOTM staff has reacted because the same player's submission for GOTM 59 is missing from the results list. Moreover, deducting from a single incident that reloading is allowed (or not frowned upon) is too bold for my taste, as is the implication that fewer rules attract a wider audience.

Actually, I didn't had to look long to find this incident. So I might find more. But that isn't the core of the statement. The core is that there is a big difference in what is allowed in GOTM and HoF and in my opinion that is why GOTM attracts more people. You would be amazed how many people try to find "loopholes" to win.

 

[pkf]

Actually, I didn't had to look long to find this incident. So I might find more. But that isn't the core of the statement. The core is that there is a big difference in what is allowed in GOTM and HoF and in my opinion that is why GOTM attracts more people. You would be amazed how many people try to find "loopholes" to win.

Wow! Civ5 is what one would call a niche game considering competitive (and comparative) gaming, and you of all people - as CFC staff - don't have anything better to do than to try to take away something from the only other "competition" around? That being said, the guy you just denounced posted a long statement which you completely ignored.

Probably shouldn't say anything else in public or might risk a ban.

 

[Peets]

Wow! Civ5 is what one would call a niche game considering competitive (and comparative) gaming, and you of all people - as CFC staff - don't have anything better to do than to try to take away something from the only other "competition" around? That being said, the guy you just denounced posted a long statement which you completely ignored.

Probably shouldn't say anything else in public or might risk a ban.

Firstly I denounced nobody. It was merely an example. If I wanted to denounce someone I would posted his or her name.
Secondly, I find it very childish to say "might risk a ban". If you think I would ban someone for having a different opinion then me... *sigh*

I'm not taking anything away, I find it a good thing that GOTM is there. It has a healthy amount of players that want to play that kind of games and I find that it should stay there. Though I don't have to love it. I think you are exaggerating.

You also didn't made any remarks about my core statement so instead of trying to blow up things, we should focus on more important discussions.

 

[TractorBoy]

Ironically all HoF participants unanimously hate rerolls, yet everyone keeps rerolling. I wish we lived in a perfect world where we could decide to stop doing that. The results would've been a little less magnificent, but so much time and energy saved...
Atm all I can say is hats off to the guys who are hungry enough to roll 200 maps. Doesn't even matter how skilled they are. As far as I am concerned, dedication alone is a sufficient reason to grant them medals and fame.

Speaking for myself, Peets and a few others, I hate the idea of rerolling more than five or six times. Our solution was to find another way of accumulating points on the VVV, and that was to play score games. This type of game maybe a little tedious towards the end but it beats the hell out of tedium in the beginning! Unfortunately these games are far too time consuming for most people.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Then you still have silver or bronze

Yeah, but then second and third guy jump in and you leave with nothing. You know what I mean. Sure, there is a long list of setups to choose from for harvesting points and medals and whatever, but comparative aspect is a big portion of what appeals to many players in the first place and you miss that while submitting an uncontested entry.

Moreover, deducting from a single incident that reloading is allowed (or not frowned upon) is too bold for my taste

It's not a single incident, nor it is something new. It's been GotM reality for many years.

Speaking for myself, Peets and a few others, I hate the idea of rerolling more than five or six times. Our solution was to find another way of accumulating points on the VVV, and that was to play score games. This type of game maybe a little tedious towards the end but it beats the hell out of tedium in the beginning! Unfortunately these games are far too time consuming for most people.

I suspect the number of player who are willingly play score games is very low. No offence, but personally I'd rather have a root canal without anesthesia.

 

[Max M.]

in combination with displayed approved saves that show things like a standard speed turn 70 capital settled in a perfect petra spot with 6 pop, 3 contested wonders + national college, granary, non-free monument, 2nd city at 3 pop, religion founded, units being 2 workers, a spearman, ignore-terrain archer, and scout, and the log showing first pantheon and Great Library built at a time that requires finding pottery or writing from a ruin, and a late Petra (near turn 100) that miraculously didn't get claimed on top of all the other instances of "excessive luck" when the map settings are something like 3billion/hot/low sea

Since this is a description of the particular game (the one I submitted for current g-major):

Spoiler :

it would be fun enough to mention that I never reroll for ruins (I do reroll for Petra and at least 1 rel. CS nearby). I think you're overestimated a bit the contribution of the lucky ruins in this particular result (For example T38 GL does not require pottery or writing from a ruin, in fact a ruin writting gives you <T34 GL - you'll find an example in my submissions too , I would also dispute other things like "miraculously not claimed ~T100 Petra" etc. but that does not really matter as not related to ruins).

Just a remark (for your "luck knowledge base").

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

It's not the lack of Ruins luck or the lack of any other particular type of luck either that destroys the level playing field. It is the distribution of such luck and the harvesting of the top 0.1% to 1% best starts that does, as exhibited in nearly endless rerolls that ruins the competition for the vast majority of all players.

Sun Tzu Wu