Banned Exploits - Question & Answers

[Salomo]

We have been down that road before. It is not possible to be totally specific. The more specific we tried to be, the more exceptions and borderline issues that came up.

If the words used are not clear try googling the phrase and use the "reasonable man" test. (i.e. Would a reasonable man interpert the phrase that way.)

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Reminder: Guys, this thread is not for dissussion of the rule. It is for specific questions about the rule.

My specific question about the rule is whether we can revise it.

Working with laws and rules is what I do for a living and I know the rules can be made a lot more precise. If you are willing to revisit the rules to determine what they shall actually boil down to, I am offering my help. Not everyone will like the rules in the end, but at least we will better know what to base our play on.

 

[DaveMcW]

Ok i have a specific question :

When can i make another deal after i break one from a DoW(not from a ''phony'' war) and going to enter his territory?

1) Right after i declare war to a civ?

This one. The restriction is on making peace, not on making new deals.

 

[Cel.erity]

Hello. First time posting here, although I have been lurking since Civ IV. In my opinion, this ruleset is confusing, and perhaps should be reworded into something more concrete. I have a few questions on what is/isn't allowed.

1. Is post #2 an actual set of rules, or not?

2. Is it ok to sell GPT and luxuries to an AI before a legit DoW? Or only one or the other?

3. If I sell cotton to an AI and DoW them, at what point am I allowed to resell the cotton? Immediately, 30 turns later, or after the AI's capitol is taken?

4. If a barb happens to walk into my territory onto a cotton tile, am I allowed to sell that cotton at all? Keep in mind it could still be considered exploitative even if I do not resell after repairing, since I could get 240 gold and then still receive 4 happiness for 30 turns.

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

[Peets]

2. Is it ok to sell GPT and luxuries to an AI before a legit DoW? Or only one or the other?

It is allowed if it is legit and you don't keep doing it multiple times.

3. If I sell cotton to an AI and DoW them, at what point am I allowed to resell the cotton? Immediately, 30 turns later, or after the AI's capitol is taken?

Immediately.

4. If a barb happens to walk into my territory onto a cotton tile, am I allowed to sell that cotton at all? Keep in mind it could still be considered exploitative even if I do not resell after repairing, since I could get 240 gold and then still receive 4 happiness for 30 turns.

Thanks for answering my questions.

You can sell it, it is not allowed that the barb keeps destroying it so you can sell it multiple times.

 

[Denniz]

1. Is post #2 an actual set of rules, or not?

The first post is the rule. The second post is a rephrasing of the rule so is also the rule.

Use whichever one makes the most sense. In case of uncertainty. use the most restrictive interpretation.

 

[lampuiho]

Sometimes you just get the opportunity to declare war right after selling luxuries or borrowing large sum of money to build science buildings when the other AIs approach you :/

And is the science exploit with rationalism and piety switching still exist?

 

[Denniz]

Sometimes you just get the opportunity to declare war right after selling luxuries or borrowing large sum of money to build science buildings when the other AIs approach you :/

And is the science exploit with rationalism and piety switching still exist?

As long as you don't engage in a repeated pattern of trade\war and the war is a real war then there shouldn't be an issue.

I don't recall if the science exploit has been fixed. If you need to switch, go ahead. Just don't switch back and forth repeatedly to get extra free tech.

 

[Browd]

The Fall patch notes say: "Do not let a player earn the 2 free techs from the Rationalism Finisher twice."

 

[Denniz]

Moderator Action: Moved the extra discussion to it's own thread. This thread is for brief questions and answers about HOF exploit rules. Discussion, especially the revisting of past discussions, should be done elsewhere.

 

[Genghis.Khan]

Fall Patch Released

 

[Moriarte]

I'd like to participate, since it seems GK compatible now and read rules and most posts here. One thing is not completely clear: Snatching worker from CS. Exploit?

 

[booyachris]

Snatching workers beyond one should lower cs resting point by 20. Not an exploit. A necessary maneuver in hof civ games. Pretty sure if you declare war on 2nd cs before making peace with first warred cs, you can steal two workers without receiving the 'cs grow worried message. The 20 pt resting spot hit only happens to a couple cs anyways.

 

[Denniz]

I'd like to participate, since it seems GK compatible now and read rules and most posts here. One thing is not completely clear: Snatching worker from CS. Exploit?

Stealing workers is fine.

 

[pholtz]

It seems to me, and I know I'm not a very good player, that the AI's are using up their gold much more since the patch. I'm sure there are ways around it (giving the AI a loan so they have more money), but am I right that it seems harder to con the AI's out of a significant amount of cash? So maybe they are making a bit of progress to reduce this exploit.

 

[Denniz]

It seems to me, and I know I'm not a very good player, that the AI's are using up their gold much more since the patch. I'm sure there are ways around it (giving the AI a loan so they have more money), but am I right that it seems harder to con the AI's out of a significant amount of cash? So maybe they are making a bit of progress to reduce this exploit.

It is good that the designers are seeking to limit gold exploits. The exploit ban has to stand, though, even if the designers ever plug all the holes. Better safe than sorry.

 

[tommynt]

if u say something often enough u believe it, dont u?

It is good that the designers are seeking to limit gold exploits.

u r kind of contradicting yourself, if designer think breaking of lump sum deals d be an exploit they d just not allow it instead limiting it.
But they looked into it and thought it d be fine the way it is

 

[pholtz]

I just saw a video of a player playing the GOTM, and didn't realize how bad the exploit was until now. He would get a loan, then declare war. A turn or two later, get peace, then repeat with other civilizations. If I knew how I would probably make two changes to the game.

1 - If you own somebody money (have a gpt payment) and you declare war on them, they get a BAD negative diplomatic hit towards you that would not go away for a long time, say 50 - 100 turns, after the war was over, at normal speed. It would be a bad enough hit, that when peace was declared, they would still dislike you and occasionally denounce you even if no other hostile action was taken. This would be easy to avoid, just don't declare war with someone you are paying money to, or don't take out a loan if you want to declare war.

2 - If you were giving someone a resource and it was canceled because you lost the resource, the deal would be remembered. Once you got the resource back, the deal would automatically resume. If you were getting gpt, that would be canceled until you got it back. No negative diplomatic hit for this. If the deal is canceled because you declared war the deal would NOT be forgotten and resume as soon as peace breaks out. If they declare war on you, the deal is forgotten.

Would those two changes cover the exploits prohibited in the HOF?

 

[FeiLing]

Can't be to hard to make other civs stop trading with you and/or give you much less gold for your resources/gpt after you've broken deals (that haven't passed at least like half of their duration) through actively declaring war.

How about you force/ask one of the firaxis guys to read this and eventually make a statement about what they think about it/why they're not considering changing it?

 

[Peets]

I just saw a video of a player playing the GOTM, and didn't realize how bad the exploit was until now. He would get a loan, then declare war. A turn or two later, get peace, then repeat with other civilizations. If I knew how I would probably make two changes to the game.

Sadly, some of them even left HoF because they weren't allowed to do the exploit.
I find your first suggestion excellent

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i get that stealing a CS worker isnt an exploit but what about stealing AI workers? pholtz mentions an LP where you sell gpt, DoW, then wait on a peace deal. but really it was sell gpt, DoW and steal AI worker, and wait on the peace deal. is that a fake war?

i get that there is a legit strategy to taking AI workers but you have to DoW for it and often you can do this a few times sub-t20. Even with AI spending way more gold than pre-patch you can still milk them for 500g+ by t20.