Banned Exploits - Question & Answers

[Denniz]

The following exploits are not allowed. (Note: These banned exploits apply to Vanilla and G&K. See here for BNW exploit bans.)

Liberty/Autocracy Policy Switch
If you fill out the liberty tree, with the extra settler/worker and representation(golden age), and then switch to autocracy, then back to liberty, you get another set of settlers/workers and a golden age...

Exploit involving trading for Lump Sums of Gold
Systematically making and breaking agreements for lump sums of gold with the AIs is not allowed. It is considered an exploit when there is a clear pattern of activity beyond normal play.

Examples of tactics used:

• Repeatedly selling a resource (luxury, strategic, etc.) and pillaging or allowing Barbarians or other civs to pillage the resource or trade route to break the deal.
• Repeatedly selling a resource (luxury, strategic, etc.) and declaring war or otherwise bringing about a war that breaks the deal. (i.e. a phony war just to break the deal.)
• Repeatedly selling Gold per Turn (GPT) and declaring war or otherwise bringing about a war that breaks the deal. (i.e. a phony war just to break the deal.)
• Repeatedly selling Cities and declaring war or otherwise bringing about a war so you can take them back. (i.e. low risk, low cost war just retrieve the cities for resale to another civ.)

Things not considered when looking for a pattern related to the Lum Sum Gold exploit:

• Trades for Gold per Turn (GPT) is not considered an exploit under this rule.
• Trades active at the end of the game are not considered broken.

Please also read the reworded version of this rule in the next post for further clarification.

Building Oxford multiple times
Building Oxford University National Wonder and then gifting or selling the city containing it and building it again for another free tech is not allowed

Research overflow bug
Deliberately taking advantage of this bug to improve your finish date/Score is not allowed.

NOTE: New exploits will occur or be discovered over time. Use of a potential exploit should be verified the HOF Staff before use.

 

[Denniz]

DaveMcW suggestion that may be simpler to understand and follow. Edited Apr 28 2011.

Exploits involving trading for Lump Sums of Gold

• You may not combine resources (luxury, strategic, etc.) and Gold Per Turn (GPT) on your side of a deal. Or if you do, you must protect your resources until the deal is finished.
• If a resource deal is broken, you may not resell the resource until the original deal would have expired.
• If you declare war to break a GPT for gold deal, you may not make peace until you capture the enemy capital or half of their cities.
• You are allowed to sell cities, but you may not recapture any city after selling it.

Things not considered a Lum Sum Gold exploit:

• Strict resource for GPT deals can be broken and remade any time.
• Gifted cities can be recaptured if you weren't paid for them

 

[Denniz]

Moderator Action:
This thread is for brief questions regarding interpertation of the above exploit rules.

This thread is not the place for questions or comments about whether the rule should exist. Post that are off-topic will be move elsewhere or removed as appropriate.

Constructive suggestions or comments should be submitted via PM or e-mail

 

[DaveMcW]

I'm not sure my ruleset is totally compatible with yours.

GPT for gold deals can be broken and remade any time.

...was meant to allow most war exploits and repeal this rule:

Repeatedly selling Gold per Turn (GPT) and declaring war or otherwise bringing about a war that breaks the deal. (i.e. a phony war just to break the deal.)

(I'm happy to start a debate/poll thread on this if you want.)

 

[Denniz]

I'm not sure my ruleset is totally compatible with yours.

GPT for gold deals can be broken and remade any time.

...was meant to allow most war exploits and repeal this rule:

Repeatedly selling Gold per Turn (GPT) and declaring war or otherwise bringing about a war that breaks the deal. (i.e. a phony war just to break the deal.)

(I'm happy to start a debate/poll thread on this if you want.)

No. I did not intent to repeal the gold for GPT. I missed that bit. I liked how you phrased the rest of it. It was a little more restrictive otherwise but I thought it might be easier to understand.

Gold for GPT deals that are immediately broken are no different than gold for luxury deals that get broken. It rises to the level of exploit when they are used systematically just as a source of income. You know, self-pillage and phony wars. That is the pattern we are looking to avoid. If you are really going to war then I could care less what deals you break.

No debate\poll thread is needed on this. I am not going down that path again. I am willing to accept help with the phrasing but I am not changing the rule. Why don't you PM me if you have any ideas?

 

[FiveAces]

Gold for GPT deals that are immediately broken are no different than gold for luxury deals that get broken. It rises to the level of exploit when they are used systematically just as a source of income. You know, self-pillage and phony wars. That is the pattern we are looking to avoid. If you are really going to war then I could care less what deals you break.

The combination of the 1st and last sentences are confusing me.

Can you please clarify if repeatedly trading my GPT for an AI's gold, then immediately DOW to break AND fight a real war is ok or is an exploit? Like if I am playing a dom game and doing this everytime I initially DOW each Civ.

If this is ok then I can also sell a lux for gold in addition to trading my GPT, correct?

 

[Denniz]

The combination of the 1st and last sentences are confusing me.

Can you please clarify if repeatedly trading my GPT for an AI's gold, then immediately DOW to break AND fight a real war is ok or is an exploit? Like if I am playing a dom game and doing this everytime I initially DOW each Civ.

If this is ok then I can also sell a lux for gold in addition to trading my GPT, correct?

I guess it depends on how much gold we are talking about and how much damage you plan on doing to the AI.

Seriously, how much gold can you get for your GPT and luxury? Give me some hard numbers. Is the outcome of the war going to leave the AI in a position where you can't repeat the trades\war again after a peace deal? Do you see where I am going here?

 

[Denniz]

Why don't you PM me if you have any ideas?

This is what we worked out. (updated the second post)

I can live with that. What about the two lines I edited? How would you change those? How does the new line fit in with the rest?

Exploits involving trading for Lump Sums of Gold

• You may not combine resources (luxury, strategic, etc.) and Gold Per Turn (GPT) on your side of a deal. Or if you do, you must protect your resources until the deal is finished.
• If a resource deal is broken, you may not resell the resource until the original deal would have expired.
• If you declare war to break a GPT for gold deal, you may not make peace until you capture half the enemy's cities.
• You are allowed to sell cities, but you may not recapture any city after selling it.

Things not considered a Lum Sum Gold exploit:

• Strict resource for GPT deals can be broken and remade any time.
• Gifted cities can be recaptured if you weren't paid for them

 

[MadDjinn]

You've forgotten the Oxford Exploit (unless it's actually fixed).

Which, along with the Liberty->Autocracy switching and lux/pillage, are the only actual exploits ever discussed.

Part of your problem with these discussions are when you call normal game play options 'exploits', then trying to enforce 'rules' to go along with them even though your 'rules' are absolutely not what the developers intended. Change the wording to 'Game play styles disallowed for the Hof for Civ 5' and you'll get a better reaction.

 

[Denniz]

You've forgotten the Oxford Exploit (unless it's actually fixed).

Which, along with the Liberty->Autocracy switching and lux/pillage, are the only actual exploits ever discussed.

Could you explain this Oxford exploit?

Change the wording to 'Game play styles disallowed for the Hof for Civ 5' and you'll get a better reaction.

I will consider the phrase change suggestion, thank you.

 

[MadDjinn]

Could you explain this Oxford exploit?

I will consider the phrase change suggestion, thank you.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=417965

DaveMcW posted that. effectively:

build oxford - sell city - build oxford - sell city - repeat. Technically this won't even break the current 'rules' given that you can go puppet a massive empire then one by one annex/build/sell and hit future tech. Worse... in a time game, you can trade in really bad cities for a free Future Era tech to get more points.

Best done for science or diplo game. (even dom game if you can grab puppets, annex/build Oxford then gift to a weak AI)

 

[tommynt]

My opinion is that as long as trading/declaring war is called an exploit while doing RA agreements is "good gameplay" (both without any arguments) Denniz and his staff are making clueless clowns out of themself and I dont care.

Its a bit said as mp civ5 is so bad and I like the idea behind this "competition" but as allways - bad rules - bad game

Moderator Action: If you would drop the insults your posts would not only be fine, but your opinion would be appreciated. Adding insults does nothing to benefit the discussion.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[FiveAces]

I guess it depends on how much gold we are talking about and how much damage you plan on doing to the AI.

Seriously, how much gold can you get for your GPT and luxury? Give me some hard numbers. Is the outcome of the war going to leave the AI in a position where you can't repeat the trades\war again after a peace deal? Do you see where I am going here?

If they like you at the time, you can get 300g for a lux trade, and ~31g for each gpt (normal speed). So in a dom game, the smart play would be to move units into position, trade all your luxes and gpt for as much gold as you can, DOW to break the trades, then capture the capital (other cities only if needed), DOP and move on to the next victim.

Your later post has clarified that with this strategy (i) the resource can only be retraded when the deal would have expired anyway and (ii) taking only the capital is allowed only if the AI has 2 cities, (presumably at the time you DOW i.e. you are not penalized if the AI found cities after you DOW, given that it may be a while before you DOP?).

I would recommend you add "OR the AI's capital" to the clarification. The capital will be the highest strength and best-defended city, and is the only required city to capture for a dom victory. IMO taking it should be viewed as meeting the requirement for a "real war". But it's your opinion that counts .

 

[MadDjinn]

If they like you at the time, you can get 300g for a lux trade, and ~31g for each gpt (normal speed).

small clarification before Denniz blows a fuse...

1 gpt over 30 turns = 30g given (normal speed)

the exchange rate is actually discounted when going gpt for gold. Usually, it's 1 gpt for 22.5 gold. (rounded of course - 2 gpt nets you 45g)

So you 'lose' money if you actually keep the deal. (this is normal. it's a loan)

as per how much: The above discount is only effective if the AI likes you. If they don't, it's dropped by a lot more.

So, assuming someone is smart about this:

Change all workers/production to gold (max the gpt numbers)
ensure you're in a golden age (to effectively add 1gpt/worked tile)
sell gpt for lsg

You can get 2000-3000 depending on your gpt. (it has to be over 200) in one shot. That amount is useful, but they'll only give it to you if they have a multiple of that number in the bank. meaning that they will use the rest of their gold to spam units and attack; so the opportunity cost is still high.

 

[DaveMcW]

Your later post has clarified that with this strategy (i) the resource can only be retraded when the deal would have expired anyway and (ii) taking only the capital is allowed only if the AI has 2 cities, (presumably at the time you DOW i.e. you are not penalized if the AI found cities after you DOW, given that it may be a while before you DOP?).

I would recommend you add "OR the AI's capital" to the clarification. The capital will be the highest strength and best-defended city, and is the only required city to capture for a dom victory. IMO taking it should be viewed as meeting the requirement for a "real war". But it's your opinion that counts .

I support that change.

"If you declare war to break a GPT for gold deal, you may not make peace until you capture the enemy capital or half of their cities."

 

[Denniz]

small clarification before Denniz blows a fuse...

I would be concerned if it was an order of magnitude higher. I don't think I have blow any fuses yet, but I do appreciate your concern.

Though, I have considered/fanaticized about deleting the Civ5 HOF and starting over once the game and the tools are more mature.

_________________________

I support that change.

"If you declare war to break a GPT for gold deal, you may not make peace until you capture the enemy capital or half of their cities."

Done.

_________________________

As long as the deal breaking involves real war as defined in DaveMcW's quote above, we won't consider it an exploit.

I am concerned about bigger, more significant transfer of wealth. Like being able to pull 2000-3000 gold from multiple AI in a short period of time using the same resources and pillaging or phony wars. Repeat that every so often throughout the game and it can add up pretty fast. I can see how that can be addicting. It is much easier that any other strategy I can think of short of using the FireTuner to just add the gold to your treasury.

Anyone care to share what the gold numbers look like on Deity?

 

[Tabarnak]

As long as the deal breaking involves ²real war² as defined in DaveMcW's quote above, we won't consider it an exploit.

²If i understand, in the present G-Minor III, it's ok to get 300 gold from a lux, declare war and kill capital from same civ, then repeat processus some turns later from another civ.²

If i can destroy a civ, or go at war against a civ with only 2 cities, this is not an exploit.

 

[Denniz]

²If i understand, in the present G-Minor III, it's ok to get 300 gold from a lux, declare war and kill capital from same civ, then repeat processus some turns later from another civ.²

If i can destroy a civ, or go at war against a civ with only 2 cities, this is not an exploit.

Correct. The quantities of gold and the frequency of repeat don't rise to the level we will consider an exploit,

 

[vexing]

Anyone care to share what the gold numbers look like on Deity?

in a deity fake war scenario you can basically get all your gpt * 21 + 300 per luxury.

thanks for the ruling.

 

[ImperialGuard]

I would be concerned if it was an order of magnitude higher. I don't think I have blow any fuses yet, but I do appreciate your concern.

Though, I have considered/fanaticized about deleting the Civ5 HOF and starting over once the game and the tools are more mature.

I, for one, thankyou for your efforts with HOF.

You are a more patient and reasonable man than I am Sir.... with some of the subtle and not-so-subtle "jabs" that have been leveled at the HOF staff, I would have pulled the plug!!