Banned Exploits - Question & Answers

As long as the deal breaking involves real war as defined in DaveMcW's quote above, we won't consider it an exploit.

I am concerned about bigger, more significant transfer of wealth. Like being able to pull 2000-3000 gold from multiple AI in a short period of time using the same resources and pillaging or phony wars. Repeat that every so often throughout the game and it can add up pretty fast. I can see how that can be addicting. It is much easier that any other strategy I can think of short of using the FireTuner to just add the gold to your treasury.

Anyone care to share what the gold numbers look like on Deity?

in a deity fake war scenario you can basically get all your gpt * 21 + 300 per luxury.

What vexing points out is about the max when you do it to a friendly civ. lower than that, you don't get as much.

It's probably really important to note that this is only effective on Deity, since at lower levels the AI doesn't get the severe gold bonuses. Even then, you're only going to get that level of cash from a very few AIs in the game and they will have a major army around to back it up when you declare war on them. This is also generally at the mid to end part of the game where the 2000 won't go as far.

Of course, that's the basics of a 'cheese' Diplomacy victory where you sell all gpt to each civ while buying all of the city states right before the vote.

This is actually easier to deal with:

- No declaring war after, or just before, you've started building the UN when you have LSM for GPT trades going with that AI.
 
Wait a second...
"If you declare war to break a GPT for gold deal, you may not make peace until you capture the enemy capital or half of their cities."

Does this mean it is OK (let's take G-Minor III context for simplicity) to exchange all your GPT and Lux for AIs gold, DoW right after the deal and repeat the same to every AI in the same turn (Sure I will take all their capitals anyway)?

Now I am absolutely confused.
 
Wait a second...


Does this mean it is OK (let's take G-Minor III context for simplicity) to exchange all your GPT and Lux for AIs gold, DoW right after the deal and repeat the same to every AI in the same turn (Sure I will take all their capitals anyway)?

Now I am absolutely confused.
The point is that you fight a real war and do real damage if you are going grab their gold like that. Selling the same luxury(ies) and GPT repeatedly in one turn would meet the definition of the exploit.

_____________________

Folks, please try to resist trying to finding potential interpertations or potential examples the might not be covered by the rule explictly. Or at least ask about it before trying it. ;) If it could appear like something we would consider an exploit under the rules, we are probably going see it that way upon review.
 
in a deity fake war scenario you can basically get all your gpt * 21 + 300 per luxury.

thanks for the ruling.
:hmm: You didn't say how much GPT that was or how much the AI generally have available in mid to late game on Deity. :mischief:

What vexing points out is about the max when you do it to a friendly civ. lower than that, you don't get as much.

It's probably really important to note that this is only effective on Deity, since at lower levels the AI doesn't get the severe gold bonuses. Even then, you're only going to get that level of cash from a very few AIs in the game and they will have a major army around to back it up when you declare war on them. This is also generally at the mid to end part of the game where the 2000 won't go as far.
If it isn't very effect tactic then nobody should have any issues complying with the rule. I would much rather have that way than people trying to perfect better methods of combining gold trades and broken deals.

Anyway the point was to let people see how much one deal can net you. So they could see the potential gold you can get by repeat it using the pillage and phony wars. Not every AI is going to next door with that big army. And don't forget there is always pillage for situations where war isn't an option. You can't just isolate one aspect of the rule to talk about.

Of course, that's the basics of a 'cheese' Diplomacy victory where you sell all gpt to each civ while buying all of the city states right before the vote.

This is actually easier to deal with:

- No declaring war after, or just before, you've started building the UN when you have LSM for GPT trades going with that AI.
I think that is alreay covered. Selling the same resources or GPT repeatedly in a short period of time is not really possible without employing pillage or phony wars.
 
You've forgotten the Oxford Exploit (unless it's actually fixed)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=417965

DaveMcW posted that. effectively:

build oxford - sell city - build oxford - sell city - repeat. Technically this won't even break the current 'rules' given that you can go puppet a massive empire then one by one annex/build/sell and hit future tech. Worse... in a time game, you can trade in really bad cities for a free Future Era tech to get more points.

Best done for science or diplo game. (even dom game if you can grab puppets, annex/build Oxford then gift to a weak AI)
I must have missed that one. I don't know if it is fixed so I have added it to the banned list. (see OP).
 
A couple of questions occur to me:

On lump sum gold (LSG) issues, we are only talking about times that we get LSG from the AI, right? The times (if any) that we pay AI LSG for some resource or gpt are not the issue, right?

We pay for that loan of LSG with a promissory note of some per turn obligation (PTO). For purposes of defining exploit, does it matter whether that PTO is gold per turn or resource per turn (lux or strat)?

The exploit is defaulting on the promissory note (the PTO) intentionally and repeatedly. Certain defaults due to "adequate war" are permitted. Does this capture the general concept? Then the devil is in the details.

One point of interest. It has been said that if the deal is broken and you don't re-sell the resouce until deal would have expired, it is not an exploit. However, between default and expected expiration, you now have access to the GPT or to the lux or strat resource, so I am not sure that the lack of re-sell completely removes the exploitation.

dV
 
A couple of questions occur to me:

On lump sum gold (LSG) issues, we are are only talking about times that we get LSG from the AI, right? The times (if any) that we pay AI LSG for some resource or gpt are not the issue, right?
Yes. They got your gold, so no possible exploit there.

We pay for that loan of LSG with a promissory note of some per turn obligation (PTO). For purposes of defining exploit, does it matter whether that PTO is gold per turn or resource per turn (lux or strat)?
No.

The exploit is defaulting on the promissory note (the PTO) intentionally and repeatedly. Certain defaults due to "adequate war" are permitted. Does this capture the general concept? Then the devil is in the details.
Yes. Emphsis on the "repeatedly".

One point of interest. It has been said that if the deal is broken and you don't re-sell the resouce until deal would have expired, it is not an exploit. However, between default and expected expiration, you now have access to the GPT or to the lux or strat resource, so I am not sure that the lack of re-sell completely removes the exploitation.

dV
The point of not reselling was to show that there is no cycle of sell/break/sell/break/etc. over a short period of time. Avoids a lot of "what-if" questions when a deal gets broken.
 
Are any of the "exploits" being discussed in this thread going to be fixed in a future patch by the developers of Civ V? Will they be fixed by a future Mod?

Moderator Action: Sorry, but the below type of discussion is out of scope for this thread.
If neither one, these definitions of "exploits" must be maintained for the life of Civ V. Does that really have a desirable effect on the Civ V HOF? This means years of voluntary compliance by the players and a fair amount of manual monitoring by the Civ V HOF staff.

I must ask this question:

Is it is really in the best interests of the Civ V HOF to define "exploits" that the Civ V developers probably will not fix? Most players would probably prefer to allow such exploits and have the game itself decide that their game is valid rather than try to decide how close to abusing an "exploit" they can get with the HOF staff in the unenviable position of judging when player has or has not come too close to abusing an "exploit".

Disclosure: The scope of "exploits" as defined by the Civ V HOF has probably exceeded my threshold for "exploits", meaning I'm unlikely to play and submit Civ V games to the Civ V HOF due to the inherent ambiguity of what is or is not an "exploit", judged manually by human beings. (This is simply an implication of the fact that computer code can make consistent decisions over and over and will never be affected by external factors or tempted to soften or harden a decision.) It would be preferable to have the game itself or a game module make the decision of what is or is not an "exploit" by clearly understood means.

Let me close by saying that I have the highest respect for all members of the HOF staff and they all have the highest level of integrity and fairness one could hope to meet in this life. I'm sure they will craft a good solution to Civ V's "exploit" issues. My hope is for that solution to be the least invasive and most consistent with the design of Civ V. I also hope that my words above have some (small) measure of influence or at least cause for reflection on what is desirable in the "exploit" solution.

We all probably have the same lofty goals with regard to a solution to "exploits", though "The Devil is in the details" ...

Sorry. If this is not the proper venue for discussing the issues I've brought up, please add a link to a thread that is. I do believe that readers of this thread are or should be interested in these larger philosophical discussions about reducing or expanding the scope of "exploits" in the context of the Civ V HOF.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Are any of the "exploits" being discussed in this thread going to be fixed in a future patch by the developers of Civ V? Will they be fixed by a future Mod?
I can't tell what the future will bring. Right now the tools don't exist to address these issues properly.
 
Deity AIs often have 1000-2000, sometimes have several thousand, rarely have more than 10k -- your last rival in the late game might, but probably no more than one. Or sometimes they'll be broke, because I've already extracted all of their money, or they've signed it over to another AI in a peace deal. If I'm playing for Domination on a large map, I expect to declare ~8 wars over the course of ~120 turns, so approximately once per 15 turns, starting around turn 90 (if war breaks out earlier, it probably came to me unbidden). So that's the scale of the numbers. Luxuries are pretty minor on this scale (I'm likely already selling most possible luxuries), but except for the first war, gpt could often be used to extract all of their cash-on-hand before I declare on each subsequent victim.

If you're going to do this, you can multiply your proceeds as follows: Trade all your gpt to civ A for cash. Trade the cash (plus any cash you started with) to civ B for gpt. Trade that gpt to A for cash, and back to B for gpt. Repeat until either A is out of cash, or the haircut that you take on each transaction has whittled you down to nothing. Declare on A, and enjoy a large income stream from B. The theoretical limit is 1/(1-22.5/31.5) = 3.5 multiplication of your gpt stream, and each 100 cash that you start with gets converted to 11.1 gpt for 30 turns. (In practice you'll do slightly worse due to rounding).

So, roughly tripling my income twice (a thirty turn boost repeated at 15 turn intervals) means a nine-fold increase, subject to the limits of my victims' cash positions as discussed in the first paragraph. That's ideal conditions, a more realistic value might be three- or four-fold. Even with "legitimate wars", with the intention of decapitating my victims towards Domination, it feels exploitative to me.

My personal moral code -- I don't generally submit HoF games, 'cuz I don't actually play them out once victory is assured -- runs something like this:

Don't self-pillage, or deliberately let my resources be pillaged. If they do get pillaged, it's OK to resell.

Anything's fair game in anticipation of the AI declaring on me. Heck, sometimes I misread his intentions and end up taking out bad loans. Plus if he really is planning to attack me, he likely won't pay much for my stuff.

If I'm planning/anticipating declaring on an AI:
I will sell resources only if I would have sold them to someone anyway -- I normally keep as many of my resources as I can on the market -- but won't go into negative happiness or strategic resource deficit if that isn't something I would have done otherwise. I don't trade gpt for his cash -- as I said above, it "feels" exploitative to me. (The better fix would be to have your reputation with other leaders take a hit if you renege on your promised payments, but until that's implemented....). If I happened to have a gpt-for-cash deal from some previous time before I anticipated war, though, I don't need to hold off my DoW just because of it. The gray area for me is selling cities. I'm usually OK with it, as there's a cost associated with recapturing those cities -- I'm deferring the march on his capital by a few turns, giving him time to marshal defenses. But sometimes it does feel like somewhat exploitative, or at least edging into gray.

I don't declare "phony wars". Actually I feel like the diplo costs are high enough, and the lost opportunity for a Research Agreement, and AIs won't make peace easily unless you're actually punishing them, that I doubt phony wars are particularly profitable in my games.

Anyway, that's three cents (damn inflation) from me. I have no idea how to implement these into enforceable rules
 
Deity AIs often have 1000-2000, sometimes have several thousand, rarely have more than 10k -- your last rival in the late game might, but probably no more than one. Or sometimes they'll be broke, because I've already extracted all of their money, or they've signed it over to another AI in a peace deal. If I'm playing for Domination on a large map, I expect to declare ~8 wars over the course of ~120 turns, so approximately once per 15 turns, starting around turn 90 (if war breaks out earlier, it probably came to me unbidden). So that's the scale of the numbers. Luxuries are pretty minor on this scale (I'm likely already selling most possible luxuries), but except for the first war, gpt could often be used to extract all of their cash-on-hand before I declare on each subsequent victim.
Yes, I have heard similar numbers before. Using some of the banned tactics over the course of a game there is a lot of gold to be had.

If you're going to do this, you can multiply your proceeds as follows: Trade all your gpt to civ A for cash. Trade the cash (plus any cash you started with) to civ B for gpt. Trade that gpt to A for cash, and back to B for gpt. Repeat until either A is out of cash, or the haircut that you take on each transaction has whittled you down to nothing. Declare on A, and enjoy a large income stream from B. The theoretical limit is 1/(1-22.5/31.5) = 3.5 multiplication of your gpt stream, and each 100 cash that you start with gets converted to 11.1 gpt for 30 turns. (In practice you'll do slightly worse due to rounding).

So, roughly tripling my income twice (a thirty turn boost repeated at 15 turn intervals) means a nine-fold increase, subject to the limits of my victims' cash positions as discussed in the first paragraph. That's ideal conditions, a more realistic value might be three- or four-fold. Even with "legitimate wars", with the intention of decapitating my victims towards Domination, it feels exploitative to me.
Interesting example. Not the thing I had in mind. It takes two separate limiting conditions and combines them to exceed the limits intended.

Anyway, that's three cents (damn inflation) from a Deity warmonger. I have no idea how to implement these into enforceable rules
Thanks. I guess the addition to the rules would be:
Borrowing gold or resources from one AI so you can use it to increase the amount of gold you can get in broken trade aggrement with another is allowed.
 
you have ever thought about that there is a diference in deals get brokken by (self) pillage where u dont get a diplo penatly and deals which u brake by war which will mark you as warmonger and get you into either hostile or cautios status with all world in no time?
 
Would it be possible to revisit the rules on exploits for the purpose of comming up with a single post (ideally the first in the thread) clearly naming what is and what is not allowed and dropping all rules which cannot be explained in sufficient clarity?

Taking the "lump sum gold for resource before war" exploit, a clear rule would be:

If a resource deal is broken, you may not resell the resource until the original deal would have expired.

This is actually included in the second post, without indication whether that is the rule to follow or not. It is quite restrictive, but it also is a rule everyone can follow and that can actually be checked.

An unclear rule would be:
Systematically making and breaking agreements for lump sums of gold with the AIs is not allowed. It is considered an exploit when there is a clear pattern of activity beyond normal play.

The words used to make up the rule require too much interpretation and judgement: What is "systematically"? What is "normal play"? At what point does behaviour become a "clear pattern"? Three different judges might give three different rulings on this.

Abstract rules are good in the real world where more is at stake and the leeway of judgement is required to make up for the inevitable injustices strict laws create. They may also be needed when the game is new and so many exploits still to discover. But I believe none of us wants to start publishing or researching a compendium of Civ5HoF decisions for precedent cases and at the present development of the game it should not be needed.

Hence we need strict rules that require no interpretation and are clear to see from reading the first post alone or - even better - the rules page. Is there a chance we can get that and is any help needed for devising them?
 
From what I have read now in GMinor XX, I am allowed to make a trade with the AI receiving all his money and I give him GPT and then declare war and kill him. Giving me a very nice advantage over the AI. This will give you a nice boost in domination games since you buy more units and the AI can't do much because he has all his gold gone.
Seems an exploit to me.
 
From what I have read now in GMinor XX, I am allowed to make a trade with the AI receiving all his money and I give him GPT and then declare war and kill him. Giving me a very nice advantage over the AI. This will give you a nice boost in domination games since you buy more units and the AI can't do much because he has all his gold gone.
Seems an exploit to me.

Doesn't seem like an exploit to me, only like betrayal. Who are we to judge whether to be naughty or nice to the AI?

But then again, I don't really care whether it is an exploit or not. I would be happy with any rule that is clear enough to follow without reviewing case law.
 
Doesn't seem like an exploit to me, only like betrayal. Who are we to judge whether to be naughty or nice to the AI?

But then again, I don't really care whether it is an exploit or not. I would be happy with any rule that is clear enough to follow without reviewing case law.

Would you accept any trade for all your money for GTP in a multiplayer?
If it is accepted I will surely use it, would make my games much better. Perhaps I'll try some date games then.
 
Would it be possible to revisit the rules on exploits for the purpose of comming up with a single post (ideally the first in the thread) clearly naming what is and what is not allowed and dropping all rules which cannot be explained in sufficient clarity?
We have been down that road before. It is not possible to be totally specific. The more specific we tried to be, the more exceptions and borderline issues that came up.

If the words used are not clear try googling the phrase and use the "reasonable man" test. (i.e. Would a reasonable man interpert the phrase that way.)

_____________________________________________

Reminder: Guys, this thread is not for dissussion of the rule. It is for specific questions about the rule.
 
Googling phrases used in the exploit rules for clarification? Either write clear and concise exploit rules or none at all. Vague exploit rules are neither good for players or the volunteers checking the games. It also hurts participation and puts too much pressure on both players and the volunteers checking the game.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Ok i have a specific question :

When can i make another deal after i break one from a DoW(not from a ''phony'' war) and going to enter his territory?

1) Right after i declare war to a civ?

or

2) After i captured his capital or half of their cities?

or

3) None 1) or 2), i have to absolutely wait at the end of deal(for example, at standard speed, i make a deal at turn 10, declare war at turn 15 but i wait for turn 41 to make another deal), but maybe i can remake a deal earlier if i completely kill a civ?

The second phrase seems the most fair to me. I mean...i kind of fullfilled a 'special'' task and it refers from Dave's suggestion.
 
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