Banned resource graphics mods

Just to clarify here that I am a supporter of true graphics mods that allow players to customize "the appearance" of their personal game environment.

There is another range of the mod activity that either knowingly or unknowingly provides significant and unfair advantages that end up diminishing the depth of the game experience. Many players do not care about these issues in their personal games because the aspects of mystery and discovery in the early game are unimportant to their perception of what the game experience is or should be. Players who prefer to play games over and over again on known map configurations achieve their enjoyment from the game on a different level than players who eagerly anticipate the chance to reveal and conquer new sets of challenges. Its just a different game in these aspects.

It is probably not possible for us to anticipate every new and innovative thing that may be discovered to bypass the elements of game play that seem to be fundamental to how the basic Game of the Month is played. I am confident that when we find these issues we can usually address them in a way that maintains the confidence of the player community without resulting in too much loss of freedom.

Graphics mods that alter terrain appearance and feature appearance without fundamentally changing the way the game is played will continue to be something we should support and encourage as long as they do not disrupt the game. An example might be using a terrain graphics mod that converts everything to totally weird and unrecognizable combinations that only you can interpret and then posting these items in the game progress threads. I would probably discourage this even though it would not mean the game submissions would be disallowed.

The issue in this case is one of those exploit issues that we know potentially exist in the game but that have previously just been minor blips on the road map. If we take these issues and push them to extremes so that they become general public knowledge and begin to have a negative effect on many people, then something has to be done to close the gap.

So the answer is to enjoy your mines that may look like suburbs and to live it up with cactii in the desert. Have fun with blacktop roadways or orthogonal railroads. I like the lush cities myself and enjoy having ponds and fountains in my city courtyards.

The line of what is clearly unacceptable will always be subject to interpretation but some graphics mods are clearly in the non-issue category that we normally associate with "graphics mods", while there is another category that are cleary well beyond any line that we would draw in the sand to determine where they begin to alter play conduct instead of just visual apperances.
 
You would see the border before you see the mine.

There is also a 'solid territory border' modpack, that makes it easier to see the borders, especially through jungle.
 
Originally posted by DaviddesJ
DrAlimentado, could you make a version like your example above, but with the food/shield/gold symbols in a straight line across the middle (so they are under the thickest part of the shroud)? It would be pretty cluttered, but I'd like to try it and see if it's useful.

Here it is:

resourcesGOTMv2.jpg


And just to check, with the smallest fog overlay:

resourcesGOTMv2_Fog.jpg


As well as adding the bonus icons I have moved a couple of the stategic/lux icons a few pixels more into the middle as I had missed where they showing (literally by a pixel or two) in the previous example.
 
Not always. Mines can be outside the border.

A modpack that makes borders more clearly visible should be ok as long as it doesn't make them visible when they shouldn't be.
 
My suggestion for GOTM20 is to reveal a larger area at the start of the game. Not only will this reduce the importance of "can the player see one extra pixel in order to get a clue where to build", but it will also add strategy to the game start, as players can plan their initial expansion when settling, not just the first turn.

Another suggestion, of the opposite sort, would be to just make the start location clearly the best in the local area, so there's no incentive to move anywhere else.

Either way this would reduce the importance of this whole issue (and hopefully some of the acrimony).
 
I wasn't sure if I should go ahead and post them, but I guess it can't do any harm.

Here's the Resources_GOTMv2_Beta.pcx file pictured above (with gold/shield/food icons)

Here's the non-g/s/f version Resources_GOTMv1.1_Beta.pcx file (as pictured on previous page but with minor adjustment to icon placement)

[EDIT: uploaded correct versions :lol:]

These versions don't have outlines added, if outlines are wanted I can add them easily enough.

FWIW I think outlines are great for visibility, but make the resource graphics stick out in a slightly strange way. Here's an example of how they look in-game:

Coal_Wheat_OL_ingame.jpg


But as I said, I'm happy to provide whatever is wanted here.
 
The outlines look cool! But adding outlines to the existing graphics (like wheat) would make them relatively more visible under the shroud (since they stick out already), so probably not a good idea for "competitive" play (unless everyone involved agrees).

I'll try out the v2beta asap (tonight).
 
I tried Resources_GOTMv2_Beta.pcx and Resources_GOTMv1.1_Beta.pcx but neither one works for me! I just get a black box in any space with resources. I never had any trouble with the previous DrAlimentado graphics. I'm running PTW 1.21f, if it matters.
 
Originally posted by cracker

Clearly these new graphics represent a game altering cheat while the old graphics where on the edge. The new graphics pack is just too much and gains some of its emotional support directly from the expanded cheat factor that reveals the resources from under the fog when they should not be exposed.[/B]

I can imagine you dont wan't them used in the GOTM but they were not designed for GOTM. Dr. A. never played a gotm. He built them for his own enjoyment. No harm in that imo.

Originally posted by cracker
It is unfortunate that these issues seem to arise where we find new non-players that develop new ways to exploit and downgrade the game play process, but we adapt and I can assure you that the games will still be fun and interesting.

......

This will mean that the bypass will reduce the ability of players to use resource graphics of their own choice in the GOTM games and other semi-competitive game events. This is an unfortunate consequence of the unintentional but perhaps poorly thoughtout choices made by a few individuals who are mostly external to the functional gaming community. [/B]
Again, these mods may interfere with GOTM, but lots of people play this game without participating in the gotm competition. They adapt/mod the game as they see fit and there's nothing wrong with that. I find terms as 'non-players' and 'the functional gaming community' displaying elitarism. They seems to suggest that if you're not participating in a competition, or more specifically the GOTM, you're less a player and not qualified to alter anything in the game. Please remind that the vast majority of Civ3 owners doesn't compete in any competetion .


The solution to this problem for the gotm can also be very simple. Why not design a graphics mod for gotm purposes that enlarges the FOW and make this compulsary for all gotm players. When it's possible to detect if anyone used a graphics mod that's not allowed in gotm I guess it's also possible to check if someone did use a required one. That way every gotm competitor can use graphics mod to improve resource visibility to their hearts delight.
 
Originally posted by cracker
It is probably not possible for us to anticipate every new and innovative thing that may be discovered to bypass the elements of game play that seem to be fundamental to how the basic Game of the Month is played.
You don't have to. Why not diminish your workload by publishing a set if rules?

The issue in this case is one of those exploit issues that we know potentially exist in the game but that have previously just been minor blips on the road map. If we take these issues and push them to extremes so that they become general public knowledge and begin to have a negative effect on many people, then something has to be done to close the gap.
You still don't get it. It is an issue because it is unfair, not because we now know about it.

So the answer is to enjoy your mines that may look like suburbs and to live it up with cactii in the desert. Have fun with blacktop roadways or orthoganal railroads. ... The line of what is clearly unacceptable will always be subject to interpretation.
Please, Cracker, don't leave us with a grey area.
It doesn't have to be subject to interpretation. It can be subject to rules. Really, it is that easy!
 
Originally posted by DaviddesJ
I tried Resources_GOTMv2_Beta.pcx and Resources_GOTMv1.1_Beta.pcx but neither one works for me! I just get a black box in any space with resources. I never had any trouble with the previous DrAlimentado graphics. I'm running PTW 1.21f, if it matters.

Whoops! hehe, here is an object lesson in why I shouldn't rush stuff at 2 in the morning :lol:

I've uploaded the correct files now.

In my haste I had neglected to set the palette back to 256 colours, there were about 15.99 million colours too many in those pcx files :D
 
Originally posted by Ribannah
Please, Cracker, don't leave us with a grey area.
It doesn't have to be subject to interpretation. It can be subject to rules. Really, it is that easy!
Ribannah, rules are not the issue.

I am unwilling to reduce the flexibility that players have to reasonably explore their own enjoyment of the game through real graphics only modifications that they should freely have the right to use.

We cannot fully legislate the the need for some form of minimal competence, good judgement, and basic ethics.

I am unwilling to reduce the process to the one you want and that would be to prohibit everything unless it is reviewed and individually approved and put on a list.

DO NOT confuse the two issues here. This current set of problems was an obvious error in judgement (accidental at first and then perhaps glorified and promoted by individuals that should know better.)

We will close this loophole and it probably will have no effect on the current game or future games.

The primary cost here is in terms of the time wasted and resources that are stolen from other projects that probably would been going to things that would have benefitted you more than chasing the elusive rats in the crawlspace.

Dr. Alimentado is working on versions of his modification that accomplish what he wanted to do without expanding the negative impacts; Firaxis is working on disabling the display of any graphics that should be hidden; we have a solution implemented for Gotm20 and all future games that will render this issue unimportant.
 
The "GOTMv2_beta" resources are great! I like them even better than the original DrAlimentado graphics. Thumbs up!

I hope we can get an agreement that using "conforming" graphics in the GOTM is ok, so I don't have to constantly switch back and forth.
 
Originally posted by cracker

Firaxis is working on disabling the display of any graphics that should be hidden

This is fantastic news!! If Firaxis implement this then it looks like we will all be entirely happy.

As it is are people happy with the two 'GOTM-complient' versions posted here?
I could still add outlines but instead of adding a pixel-wide outline around the edge I could paint over the actual edge of the existing graphics.

Let us know what is wanted and I shall provide :)
 
Originally posted by cracker
Ribannah, rules are not the issue.
Er, yes they are. I refer you to the initial post of this thread.

We cannot fully legislate the the need for some form of minimal competence, good judgement, and basic ethics.
Nobody is asking you to. These things are taken for granted unless proven otherwise.

I am unwilling to reduce the process to the one you want and that would be to prohibit everything unless it is reviewed and individually approved and put on a list.
It's entirely up to you, but as you can see your approach in this is causing exacty the 'confusion, error of judgements, glorification, promotion, loopholes, thefts of your precious time, elusive rats' and anything else that you fear so much.

Not to mention OUR precious time and the totally unnecessary confusion and conflicts, the unfairness, double standards, arbitrariness etcetera that WE fear and that you and you alone could so easily prevent if only you would be willing to invest that little time (what can it be? Half an hour?) to reduce - the right word indeed! - the potential of further problems.
 
Originally posted by cracker
...we have a solution implemented for Gotm20 and all future games that will render this issue unimportant.

So what does this mean for resource graphic mods?



I did some checking into this and while the posted displays in this thread with the fog overlay are helpful they are deceptive. Since its a blend the innermost grey is the closest to black you'll get, the second circle you can see any bright color easily, and this is the only point of interest since clear map can make all fog edges like this.

Using PTW resources which are slightly different than the originals, there isn't a single luxury that is not visible with a one spot fog. Just about every one is visible from the top and the bottom (Note: I am using top to describe the north west edge.), the only ones that are close to being completely covered are Ivory and Furs. Furs are only mostly hidden because it is on forests and blends pretty well, and Ivory shares the same trait but on plains. If you are looking at a row of forests where one has Furs or Ivory you should be able to easily spot the one that is different.

The bulk of strategic resources are also visible from top and bottom. The two early (Iron and Horses, the only ones where it seems reasonable that parts of the map may still be uncovered) are also visible from the left, whereas Horses are only not visible from the left. Also since Iron will only appear on hills and mountains, they are already effectively one tile closer, so on average are way more visible than Horses which hide better under the fog locally.

There appears to be no natural way to not reveal a Whale for any reasonable map configuration, and the Fish on a single tile lake is visible from all but the left side (When its not on a lake it shares the same always visible status that Whales have.). Wheat is visible from all but the left and the Cow is visible from the top and bottom. Gold falls in the same category as Iron being on a hill. And Game falls in the same group as Furs, although it like the Cow is made easier to see because of the high-contrast white that is present on each image.

All in all it seems clear that the Firaxis artist(s) that made the resources didn't have any sort of design spec to maintain them complete invisible with a border fog. So this crack in the dike, isn't a crack or a dike.


The effect of this mod on gotm19? Nothing, the Wheat was visible for those who looked without the mod. And the Game usually was uncovered with the first worker move.

As an aside, these tests were only done by eye. It would be fairly simple to open up a screenshot and reverse the blend and get some identifiable shapes in any area but the completely black areas, which in the case of Civ is anything with at least one edge visible. I assume you could do this fairly easily in Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro even.
 
Ribaanah, don't you think you are taking this "no rules is bad rules" thing too seriously?

It's only a game. I can't see anyone coming up with a definitive rules set, first time out, with no edits necessary.

And is a rules set necessary? As I understand it, the rules are simple.

1) Download the game. Do not mod the save in any way.

2) Play until 1000BC and submit a QSC if you want feedback on your early play.

3) Submit spoliers as you complete certain preconditions if you want to and play to completion.

4) Submit the final game before the due date.

5) Don't reload and replay any turn. That is considered cheating.

What more do you want than that? Or is there a rule here I'm missing?
 
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