Bannor: Order vs Empyrean

[warhawk26]

Every time I play Bannor I always go for The Order, however, after my last game I am starting to think that Empyrean might actually be a better fit. The Order fits well thematically and Undying Order is a great spell, but I find that Bannor, because of the mana types they start with, has a deficiency with respect to destructive magic capable of affecting an entire stack, which can make taking a strongly defended city exceedingly tough. Empyrean seems to cover this deficiency with Chalid’s Pillar of Fire and Luridus’ Crown of Brilliance. You miss out on Undying Order, which is really nice, but I think Crown of Brilliance makes up for it, and when I go into world conquest mode with Theocracy and Crusade I generally don’t have happiness problems anyway. You also miss out on Vallin and Sphenor, but Chalid is at least as good of a hero as Sphenor, in my opinion. I haven’t found much use for Crusaders, maybe if I was fighting Sheam or Hyboram, other than that I almost always build champions instead.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Summary: Empyrean > Order overall and none of the Bannor's unique features change that.

Sounds about right to me.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Summary: Empyrean > Order overall and none of the Bannor's unique features change that.

Sounds about right to me.

There's only one real drawback to Empyrean: Vicars suck. Horribly. Still, everything else is head and shoulders above Order. Especially when you're on a crusade, you can dedicate your cities to building support troops (like Rathas) rather than combat troops (like Crusaders) since you'll have bazillions of Demagogues appearing everywhere.

The only reason I can think of to go Order instead of Empyrean with Bannor is to keep your economy from imploding. Between Donal Lugh recruiting and Demagogues popping up all over the place, it's kind of hard to keep your research rate up.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm still of the opinion that Empyrean Temples should significantly decrease a city's military production instead of increasing it. Thematically it is a philosophical and not a militant religion. I like making their temples instead have a Great Person bonus.

 

[Marksman77]

Yeah, it's just not proper that Empyrean is a good religion for a warmongering game. IMHO both Crown of Brilliance and Chalid's Pillar of Fire would be _much_ better suited for Order.

 

[bluedevil99]

I'll stick up somewhat for Order, as Social Order and Basilicas can really rock. Crusaders are useless compared to Rathas, but Valin AND Sphener together are on par with Chalid, particularly considering how early you get Valin. Also, as the Bannor, the relevant techs for Order lie along a path you'd want to follow anyway and mean you get to Fanaticism that much earlier. For anyone else, though, I'd go with Empyrean for sure. And I agree it's antithematic that Empyrean is as good or better a warmongering religion than the Order.

 

[warhawk26]

You make some good points, particularly with respect to the heroes Valin and Sphener, and the fact that the techs most synergistic with The Order are along the path you want to follow anyway. However, one of the signature features of The Order is social order, but unfortunately you can't use it and crusade at the same time and, to me at least, what makes Bannor fun to play, and different from a run of the mill civ, is crusade.

 

[Sofista]

I'm still of the opinion that Empyrean Temples should significantly decrease a city's military production instead of increasing it. Thematically it is a philosophical and not a militant religion. I like making their temples instead have a Great Person bonus.

Well, maybe Kantian imperatives slipped their way into their philosophy?

 

[Sureshot]

You make some good points, particularly with respect to the heroes Valin and Sphener, and the fact that the techs most synergistic with The Order are along the path you want to follow anyway. However, one of the signature features of The Order is social order, but unfortunately you can't use it and crusade at the same time and, to me at least, what makes Bannor fun to play, and different from a run of the mill civ, is crusade.

thats definitely the most annoying part about Order/Bannor for me, Bannor should have civic synergy with the Order but instead it has anti-synergy, especially since those two civics at the same time would have great synergy (tons of free troops with which to use towards military garrison happiness)