[MOD] Erebus in the Balance Update

Qgqqqqq · Nov 12, 2014

BobCW said:
You were losing our duel too

I've "lost" several duels against you - if you count losing to the barbs, which is why we abandoned that one anyway

But I *do* play duels with other people - I've beaten Gazglum twice, abandoned one with Cornflakes after we realised the map was massive, and got 75-odd turns into a duel with BaII (which I was winning) before we dropped it due to time issues.

And personally the funnest games I've played of Civ, period, have been those duels. So if anyone wants a duel, do hit me up.

BobCW · Nov 13, 2014

I thought we dropped it because the whole point was to test Summoner for a PBEM, which no longer made sense after we learned that the trait in the version we were running was bugged

Also, wanna duel again? I'm averaging less than a turn a day from both of the games I'm currently in, and a duel shouldn't eat up too much time.

Qgqqqqq · Nov 13, 2014

Oh, probably. Like I said, they all blended together a bit. I thought we didn't even notice that it had the bug (besides both playing the civ) and that was the hilarious part of that escapade.

Sure.

Bill Bisco · Nov 16, 2014

Qgqqqqq said:
Oh, probably. Like I said, they all blended together a bit. I thought we didn't even notice that it had the bug (besides both playing the civ) and that was the hilarious part of that escapade.

Sure.

Hi Qgqqqqq,

I used to play FFH competitively a lot. It's really nice to hear that a group of people are interesting in rebalanding FFH for competitive play. Yes, I'd love to duel you and I'll check out your forum for some PBEM. I like live games too, but I'm guessing that's hard for the group that you currently have.

--Bill

Qgqqqqq · Nov 16, 2014

PM'd you.

/diversion.

Does anyone have any balance requests or ideas to go towards the next version of EitB?

Things that seem to me like they might need balancing include: Grigori, Elohim, Bannor (?), Sidar (?), Mithril Line, Naval warfare/gameplay, Lairs, Tech pacing, Starting Civics (Religion/Pacifism/Nationhood), and Starting Units/Techs in later eras, just off the top of my head.

Bill Bisco · Nov 17, 2014

I made This thread a long time ago: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...mHkgIIgF5_uJ2Tw&bvm=bv.79908130,d.cWc&cad=rja

It represents Tasunke's and my opinion on the ranking of civilizations for vanilla FFH. It may vary since I haven't been able to get your mod to work yet and haven't tested it.

Generally I'd say balance issues derive from things like: Uneven usefulness of starting mana, uneven utility and combat effectiveness of starting mana (ideally civilizations would start out with mana that provided both summons and buffs to their cities). Uneven usefulness of combat technologies. Uneven usefulness of leaders within a civilization, etc.A

Terkhen · Dec 19, 2014

While updating my mod I noticed two things in EitB 11.1 that could potentially be bugs. Chariots and Scorpion Clan Chariots changed their tech requirement from Construction to Trade but Centaur Chargers still require Construction. Is that difference intended? I also saw in the changelog a bugfix about Chalid not being able to cast Crown of Brilliance anymore, which I assume to be caused by the change to the requirements of tier four priest spell. If that's the case, another bugfix should be made for Sphener, who no longer can cast Unyielding Order.

By the way, I recently made a thread about MapScriptTools support for FFH mods. MST includes a bonus balancer which can be tweaked on a mod by mod basis, so if you are interested in proposing one or more bonus balancing schemes it would be easy to add them to the next version of MapScriptTools.

Qgqqqqq · Dec 23, 2014

I'll take a look at those. I thought I had fixed all the religious tech screwups, but it seems not. Yeah, both are bugs.

Query: in EitB, High Priests of the Order can cast Pillar of Flames. Should Sphener be permitted that?

Qgqqqqq · Jan 16, 2015

Had a nice long chat to Ellimist about a bunch of current EitB issues:

Spoiler :

From that, I'm going to propose the following changes.

Elohim:

Reliquary:
(Reminder: Reliquary's are currently a monument replacement that gives Spirit Guide, 1GPP, and -1 health.)
- Reliquary now adds the promotion "march" to units built in the city.
- Reliquary gains a priest slot.
- Reliquary cost changed from 60h->45h (?)
(Reliquary's now turn into a must-build building for pretty well every city, which also acts as an extra buff to the CRE Ethne. The march dynamic adds a new "trait" to Elohim armies, given Tolerant's lackluster affair. Priest slot and cost slash are cheeries on top to help incentivize the Elohim.)

Monk:
(Reminder: Monks are currently a 80h, 6str, 2move unit that starts with Demon Slaying 1 and Medic 1, and is available at Priesthood.)
- Monks can now upgrade to all Priests.
- Monks lose 2 moves, gain mobility promotion.
- Monks gain Drill 1 (?)
(Monks can now upgrade to Priests for 5g, bringing mobility, potentially Drill 1, and Demon Slaying with them.)

Grigori:

Adventurer Counter (?):
- Adventurer Counter mechanism merged from Extramodmod(/various).
(This divorces Adventurers from the GPP pool and creates a second counter instead, meaning that their unique flavor does not harm their economic potential.)

Infernal:

Starting Gold:
- Hyborem starts with 5 gold per average number of enemy cities divided by two (5g per extra unit gained from the "base" setup).
(This is to prevent them from being on strike if they spawn late-game.)

Sheiam:

Planar Gates:
- Planar Gates changes from 201h->150h
(Still quite expensive, this makes them more reasonable. I'd be prepared to go even lower, tbh.)

Luchuirp:

Pallens Engine:
- No longer grants Perfect Sight. Instead, grants Light to golems.
- Now requires Body mana and Alteration, instead of Sun mana and Divination.
- Cost reduced (180->120h)

Alduria Chamber:
(Reminder: requires Necromancy.)
- No longer grants Hidden. Instead, grants Heavy to golems.
- Cost reduced (180->120h)
- Now requires Death Mana
(I'd be prepared to change for any of the necromancy manas.)

(Note: This means they have a building at every mana tech save divination.)

Civics:

Conquest:
- Moves back to Warfare (from Education).

Military Strategy:
- Moves back to Military State (from Warfare).

(These techs don't have enough going for them atm, and education has too much.)

General:

Favored:
- Disciple units upgrading to other unit-types don't lose the Favored promotion. (Relevant for Savants/Lightbringers upgrading to mages.)
(Bug-fix.)

Decius:
- Decius gains the Tolerant trait.
(Decius is weak and rarely taken for all civs he works under, and this works well with his flavor.)

Religious Victory:
- Make it require the appropriate Shrine.
(Bug-fix.)

Spell Damage:
- Combat promotions lose +5 spell damage.
- Mechanism created to tie spell damage to Unit level instead.
(Combat line overshadows over upgrade lines.)
(Note

robably delayed due to complications.)

Palaces:
- Elohim palace loses +20% War Weariness.
- Malakim palace loses +10% War Weariness.
- Luchuirp palces loses +10% War Weariness.
- Ljolsofar palace loses +X% War Weariness (?).
(All weak civs, gives an easy buff.)

Naval:
- Navy units gain +100% versus Water walking units (?).
(Cultist nerf. Cultists have enormous utility, and as I recently realised (read: Bob explained it), the central issue is that they are more versatile than a navy, and punch above their weight - with a single cultist, even without Tsunami-ing, having odds on at least one galley on defense. This means that navy has more of a place in the game, without nerfing the intended function of Cultists (water collateral).)

Control Whole Team:
- Merge the Control Whole Team option from Magistermodmod.
(Allows you to control the whole team, rather than giving up to an AI. Probably won't make it into v12.)

Goblin Archers:
- Change strength from 3/5 to 2/4 (with poison, same as normal archers).

Multiple Production (???):
- Merge the Multiple Production Mod.
(I'm nowhere near convinced I want this in - in fact, it won't go in for v12 - but I want to mantain discussion on it.)

There, that should be enough to chew on for a while.

[to_xp]Gekko · Jan 18, 2015

I still have to finish reading but don't use the ffh wiki as reference, it's not very reliable. the FFH manual is much better.

Qgqqqqq · Jan 18, 2015

I generally use in-game, or the FFH wiki. Sure manual is more accurate, but a) I don't care overmuch for accuracy and b) wiki is very accessible and easy to search. I've found it generally reliable for things I've checked after the fact, too.

Calavente · Jan 19, 2015

re-navy : galley is a tier II unit .... cultist is a tier III unit...
in a the same way, a lone cultiste can kill a patrol/troop of axemen, even without using maelstorm... thus, it doesn't seem so strange that they could kill a galley... especially as you can't kill him/her by drowing him... he only needs to approach and make 1-2 holes in the planks...
same for a horde of stygian guards... that would now be unable to kill galleys

(as the water units have often greater str than their land counterpart : galley (1st boat : 7str ... versus warrior 3 and axe 4, and they have much much more movement: min 3, easily 5-7, versus the 1mvt of drown / stygian / and max 2 of cultist...)
so a tier 2 unit with 3-5-7 mvt has same str on water as a tier III unit with 1mvt..
that seems more than balanced IMO and the galley has already a huge advantage. (even a 2.5 unit: axe with iron weapon often cannot kill a tier 3: 6str horse archer due to the first strikes and the withdrawal)

and taking this change into account, it would mean that the "drowned" unit interest is much weakened.
already a 3str unit is not so strong in the water; now with a + 100% versus waterwalking, already weak drowned are nothing anymore to protect you against naval barbs (galleys, and sea monsters): 1.5str versus a 7 str galley.

In FFH vanilla (and most mods) spiritual gives mobility to disciple, I can't remember if it's the case in eitb as they get "favored..."
If that is not the case, please disregard my commetns below

for monks : giving mobility instead of 2mvt might be a nerf...

for monks: spiritual already gave mobility (??), so you could have 3mvt monks... now no more.
for spiritual elohim: spiritual gave mobility to priests... but now, you don't need it anymore
(edit: no no more --> now no more)

Qgqqqqq · Jan 19, 2015

Response:

Cultists can still kill galleys with Tsunami. I don't see any reason for them to be able to do it mano o mano. (Besides, tiers are a very inexact thing - one can get OO/Runes/FoL priests well before they can get Champions/Galleons/later priests.)

Regardless, discussion has made me decide to change it to affect disciple units (thus, functionally only Cultists) rather than everyone.

Monks, you are correct. However, most Elohim leaders are not SPI, and given the strong synergy already present, I think it's fine to nerf the one that is to boost the other two considerably.

Thanks for the comments!

Calavente · Jan 20, 2015

ty

to be honest, I was more bothered by the nerf to drowned, stygian guards and eilodon (and waterII mages... if anybody ever build them :/ ) than to the cultist themselves

For the cultists, it was more a question of me picking on the reasoning. However, on a balance point of view, I agree; having means for non-OO civs to tackle those pesky Cultists is a must.

that said, if navy was more worthwhile, people would research it earlier and would easily have str 8 galleys with combat 2 beofre cultists even appear.
IMO this change only shows that navy is a lack-luster tech branch

Qgqqqqq · Jan 20, 2015

Indeed, there's still a lot of improvements needed to be made to that line.

How would one get str 8 galleys?

Calavente · Jan 21, 2015

sorry, I meant triremes (I always mix the two up, but to my discharge, trirems are same era as galleys).
trireme : a tier II unit (sailing + bronze)is 7 str... and barbs are often well equiped in triremes.

so trireme + buccaneer promotion : 8str.

Qgqqqqq · Jan 21, 2015

That puts them at what? 1-move? Still barely able to fight off a Cultist on defense (boned on attack), and much less flexible.

Calavente · Jan 22, 2015

not really, the +1 str is both attack and defense... and they still have 2 move (and easily 3-4)
so 8str, 2mv for a tier 2 unit
against 7str 1 mv for a tier 3 unit...
IMO it is somehow balanced, even if the tier 3 is a land unit and a spellcaster.

I don't recall anybody saying that cultists were OP... Tsunami seems a bit too strong... but Ring of Fire is too... and maelstrom also. and taking tsunami's limitations it seems ok.

Qgqqqqq · Jan 23, 2015

Tiremes are 7, 2-move. 7/3-move with longshoreman, or 8/1 with buccaneer. Short of 4/5xp they can't get up to 4 move, or to str 8 2-move.

:lol:

You should hang around RB - people have been claiming tsunami is OP for years. I happen to disagree - but as stated, their ability to swat off naval units like flies meant that cultists were too powerful because of their versatility.

Calavente · Jan 27, 2015

I agree that tsunami is strong (and truth to tell I somehow follow RB;.. a bit, once every 2-3 months

)
however the point above was that cultists are too strong on water even without tsunami... I kinda find them balanced.

for tsunami... I dunno. they rule water... but many fights are inland so... :/

[MOD] Erebus in the Balance Update

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Richard's voice

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