Bar lounge

@Sommers. Hi, I'm back :) Well, I was kind of here all the time but couldn't really find time to respond you earlier. I figure that since you gave me a proper answer, I owe you one too.

Sommerswerd said:
OK I'm back:) Thanks for giving me the template for what I can say that you wont complain is "trolling" or "annoying you" or "trying to get a rise out of you":)

1. I agree that measuring the greatness of a nation is highly subjective, but I still think that the USA is easily one of the greatest nations and here are my subjective criteria why.

a. As I have already said, since this is a Civ forum, we are all here to discuss Civ and all things Civ related, and since score in Civ is something we all understand I have observed that in scenarios based on the modern era, that include all the major nations... the US tends to have a very high, if not the highest score.

b. As I have already said, I regard the wealth and military strength of a nation to be good criteria of measuring the greatness of the nation because as 2metra pointed out in the discussion about medals and cavscout pointed out dicussing "bully power" Military might and financial power give a nation the ability to do everything else. As was observed by the villain in Bruce Lee's Enter the Dragon "Value strength because strength is what makes all other values possible"
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With your definition of greatness USA is undoubtedly current greatest. GOAT with these parameters, is more difficult one. As you know, wealth and military power are difficult to compare across the ages. My guess for the nation with comparatively most financial and military influence ever would be British Empire after Napoleonic wars, but that's just a guess.

However, I do believe that you can't get everything else with Military and Financial power. E.g. things like equality, diplomatic influence, quality of healthcare etc. will require much more than just money and bully power.

Sommerswerd said:
2. Additionally, there are objective ways to quantify greatness. Here are some:

c. As I have already said, I think a nation's athletic prowess is a good way to measure its greatness because atletic competition is one of the highest profile ways that nations can compete peacefully, and the comparisons are objective. The Olympics are the grand stage for global athletic competition, and the US dominates in the Olympics.
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Personally I don't think athletic prowess is a good way to measure greatness of a nation. It basically boils down to population of the country and financial backing for the said sports. E.g. though USA has many world class athletes in many sports, US has yet to win world cup in the most popular sports in the world, i.e. football. And by football I mean the sports where the players move a ball with their feet :D This is most likely because football is not as popular a sport in US as some others are. Since there are less spectators, there is less financial backing and therefore less global success than in other sports getting more money. What does this say about greatness of USA? IMO, absolutely nothing.

BTW, just to set facts straight, most gold medals from recent Olympic Games:
2006 Winter Olympics: Germany
2008 Summer Olympics: China
2010 Winter Olympics: Canada
2012 Summer Olympics: USA

Sommerswerd said:
d. I also think that the geographic and biological diversity of the US is unparalleled on this planet. Almost every climate, and so many of the plants, animals, elements, and other resources are represented within the US borders

e. I also think that the racial, ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious diversity of the US is unmatched. That the US has so many representatives of so many different types of people, as many if not more than any other nation, I think that no nation better represents our planet's human diversity than does the USA.
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These, I have to admit that I don't really know enough about to really argue. Only thing I can say is that I believe that any kind of diversity is a powerful resource if used correctly.

Sommerswerd said:
d. Lastly, the US has become a hub of of the world relations, culture and economy. Los Angeles/Hollywood is the the entertainment capital of the World and Wall Street (New York) is the financial center. The global relations hub, the United Nations, is also in New York.
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Entertainment capital depends on your choice of entertainment. Hollywood has very high influence on movie and TV industry, but less so for stage theater, music industry or computer games industry. Most influential centres for all these (except maybe for stage theater) are in USA, so your basic premise of USA having larger influence on entertainment industry than any other country has is probably correct, but IMO the situation is again much more complicated than awarding bragging rights for a single city. Same goes with the finance. NY is undeniably very important financial hub, but as financial network is extremely complex, no single hub can really be called a center. About global relations hub, I have to agree. NY is the most important place to be, close second being Brussels with NATO and EU headquarters.

Sommerswerd said:
Before I respond I am tempted to ask for a template on what "you consider a proper response" so I dont get accused of saying nonsense to intentionally annoy or get a rise out of you (ie trolling) :p... but what the hey... I'll risk it... and my response is this.

No one on this forum has any iota of impact whatsoever on bringing about the next World War/holocaust/genocide or anything else remotely like that... zero... none. I regard the whole line of argument to basically be pseudo-intellectual, politically correct baloney... essentially trying to appear aloof and enlightened by warning all us less intelligent/educated ones of the all the scary hidden dangers and boogeymen we are creating for ourselves without even knowing/realizing it .. [ghost voice] ooooohhh scarry [/ghost voice] I live in America, remember, I get enough fearmongering as it is, thanks;)

It reminds me of the politicians here who try to get soda banned because they think they are so smart that they need to remind the rest of us neanderthals how to take care of ourselves :rolleyes:

Just because we play at running the world in a lovely game called "Civilization" does not mean we are actually running it, or that anything we say on this forum has any real world impact. We don't need to "watch our words" like real-life politicians and world leaders just because we play world leaders in this game and on this forum... Honestly, sometimes some of the sh!t I hear people say on these threads sounds like people are actually starting to think that they are real life UN ambassadors :lol:... Aivo you really should join a diplogame, seriously. I think you would enjoy it immensely.
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You did pretty well without a template :) I got your point. I have to disagree on couple of very important points, though. Yes, it is highly unlikely that anyone reading this forum would have large impact on the world. But the chance is higher than zero. First of all, I've never claimed that anyone here would ever be running the world. I don't believe that anyone of us will be. In fact I do not believe that anyone in the world is really running the show. Yes, there are people whose actions likely have more impact and influence than others' actions have. But even the most influential people have a limited impact on the world. What I am talking about is that attitudes and actions of ordinary people matter. In some cases they matter more than actions of politicians and leaders.

Let's have couple of concrete examples of ordinary people whose actions have changed the world (with their jobs at the time of their actions):
  • Martin Luther King Jr., priest, USA.
  • Claudette Colvin, highschooler, USA.
  • Mahatma Gandhi, barrister, India.
  • Desmond Tutu, bishop, South Africa.
And of course there are even more contemporary examples of people showing extraordinary courage in face of oppression, such as Malala Yousafzai (a schoolgirl from Pakistan), but it still remains to be seen if their actions have impact or not. Hopefully they do.

Unfortunately I could also make a list of ordinary people who have caused much harm and grief due to their convictions as well. To avoid insulting or hurting people who've been impacted by heinous actions of such individuals, I will not list any names. I'm sure all of us who have followed news for last couple of decades can think of several such people anyway.

Aside from the impact of individuals, I believe it is the actions and opinions of the general populace that has the largest impact on the world. For example in African American Civil Rights movement it was really the actions and support of the masses of people that made the real impact. In the end, opinion of the masses is really the opinion of the individuals forming the mass. And actions of the masses are actions of individuals combined. So I stand firm in my belief that our opinions can have difference in the world, though the difference usually is small. And therefore it is important to be concious of the impact any beliefs or convicitons one holds.
 
[party] Thank you, Yossa, Sommers and Regent! :D So far my b-day has been very nice :D. And now playing civ :D.
 
I know from another thread that Sommers had his daughter. Good job, daddy! :goodjob: In Bulgaria we say that the boy's fathers are "master craftsman", but girl's fathers are "artists" :)

You will see, sons are great of course, but daughters are just... just... you will see. Congrats, buddy [party]
 
I sent you a postcard the other day, Maga. I hope you will enjoy it :)
 
2metraninja said:
I know from another thread that Sommers had his daughter. Good job, daddy! :goodjob: In Bulgaria we say that the boy's fathers are "master craftsman", but girl's fathers are "artists" :)

You will see, sons are great of course, but daughters are just... just... you will see. Congrats, buddy [party]
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Thanks buddy:D I look forward to it.

Maga_R said:
[party] Congratulations, Sommers! [party]
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Yes it was a happy day (night). Thanks :yeah:

Maga_R said:
A bit older ;), although not sure how much :lol:. My GrandMa told me to stop counting after 21. Why?
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My family saying is that you go up to 25 then count backwards each birthday to 21, then back to 25 and then back to 21 and so on.:crazyeye: I think that makes me about 23... two more years and I'm 21 again baby :woohoo: :beer:
 
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