Barbarian Activity

[MaxAstro]

I don't like this at all actually. A lizardman has something like a 30% chance to kill a warrior defending your city, and short of keeping your scout to defend too, there's nothing else you can do about it on turn 10 besides cross your fingers. If you get wiped out in single player, you laugh it off and start a new game, but if it happens in a multiplayer game with 3 other people, it's incredibly annoying. Hasn't happened to me yet, but only because I've gotten lucky on rolls...

I've always seen the barbarians as a way to equalize remote starts and crowded starts. If you get a remote start, the barbarians slow your early expansion and provide experience to keep up with the warmongering civs that started near each other. The barbarians shouldn't be killing people off or providing you with a dozen level 10 units. The raging barbs option should offer that, not the default setting.

Lizardmen have a much smaller chance than that. They have -25% city attack, which makes them effectively equal strength, Warriors have a city defense bonus (something I actually don't like and take out of my versions), plus you have natural city defense on top of that.

Lizardmen rarely take out city defenders in my experience. Now, fighting them outside of cities, that's much less fun. Damn I am glad they can't pillage.

 

[deadliver]

I don't like this at all actually. A lizardman has something like a 30% chance to kill a warrior defending your city, and short of keeping your scout to defend too, there's nothing else you can do about it on turn 10 besides cross your fingers. If you get wiped out in single player, you laugh it off and start a new game, but if it happens in a multiplayer game with 3 other people, it's incredibly annoying. Hasn't happened to me yet, but only because I've gotten lucky on rolls...

I've always seen the barbarians as a way to equalize remote starts and crowded starts. If you get a remote start, the barbarians slow your early expansion and provide experience to keep up with the warmongering civs that started near each other. The barbarians shouldn't be killing people off or providing you with a dozen level 10 units. The raging barbs option should offer that, not the default setting.

Wow u blow my mind. You get all technical with the barbarians...Let me enlighten you...choosing the barb settings means you are willing to deal with them...for the record (hail max) I have never lost a city to Lizzies.

Explore the map, the barbs love fog of war...find choke points, they exist...park units on hills, is this thread for newbies?

If not, build roads, use them.

 

[Sarisin]

I'm beginning to think there are additional problems with the barb AI in FF vs. FFH. I've only played two games of .43 FF, but I'm seeing some things that I didn't see in the dozen or so games of FFH .34h.

1. See the attached pic. This was the second time I discovered a city on my border with a ton of barb defenders. For what? I think I remember something in the FFH .34 changelog that fixed this. I don't remember seeing any barb cities with nearly 30 defenders.

2. There is definitely something fishy with the upgrading of barbs in FF. Again, I saw a group of Axemen get promoted to Champions before the three civs in the game got any. It also seemed to be early in the Epic speed game.

3. Then, I got a real shock when I saw barb Berserker wander into my territory. I though, hmmm, another lair/dungeon nasty? But, no, then came a second, later a third and so forth. The barb AI was spawning Tier IV units long before the civs in the game. Again, I was ahead of the Archos and Scions in tech and I was just getting Rangers with Iron Working/Champions up next. The AI is spawning Berserkers.

Then, you still have the issue of the main barb force arriving too soon in slower speed games.

Please don't take these as complaints or whining about the barbs. I am just pointing out what I think are problems, maybe bugs with the barb AI in FF.

Yes, there are always ways of dealing with this, and if the intent is there to make the barbs more difficult to deal with, fine. But, I have a feeling that changes to a particular part of the code to address something may have thrown other things off - but what do I know? I'm a player, not a developer!

 

[deadliver]

Wow....that is pretty nasty... worst i've had is riders and axemen, thought those were a pain but sheesh...

 

[xienwolf]

We haven't touched any of the code involving Barb tech progression. When I looked at it earlier today though I did notice that the Barbarians are able to research, and they get a research BONUS based on what technologies other players already know. Previously I had been of the impression that they were just automatically granted various technologies when certain landmarks were hit (like when the era changes).


So in a game where the Barbarian attack prevents any civ from doing any decent research, the barbarians themselves are doing research just fine, and can thus manage to get a technology lead.

 

[Sarisin]

As I said, there is nothing new about having Tier III and IV barb units in a game. That happens all the time in FFH if you get deep enough into your game and there is room on your map for barbs to spawn. Frankly, when you have comparable units in dealing with them, especially when they send a bunch your way, it is fine. I especially like capturing barb Tier IV units to exploit the National limit of 4.

However, I think the problem in FF is WHEN these units are built/upgraded/spawned. I'm sorry, but I just don't see a ragtag group of barbs exceeded the other players in Research and beating them to the stronger units. In FFH I'm pretty sure the way it works is if X number of civs research Iron Working and field Champions, etc. the barbs will start producing them somehow too. Same with Tier IV units.

That's not what I'm seeing in my first two games of FF .43. Again, if this is intended, to let the barbs build stronger units before the AI/Human player, that's fine. However, it might be a balance issue when you realize just how many units the barbs can produce through spawning and building.

Also, putting 30 barb units in a small city for no apparent reason to defend when they are supposed to be raging barbarians is a bug IMO.

 

[Sarisin]

Just wanted to add that the AI barbs started spawning Beastmasters to add to their Berserkers. It was OK though as I had Chalid and managed to capture two of them.

Still, the barb Tier IV units are coming before the civs remaining in the game have a chance to get to the techs necessary to produce the units themselves.

 

[Sarisin]

I just started my third FF .43 d game playing as Scions/Risen Emperor.

Again, I have to say that the AI for raging barbs is broken.

The main barb force came again on Turn 49 (epic speed). I expected that, but it ended the games exploration phase for awhile.

However, what I did NOT expect was for the AI to start spamming Archers (not the Goblin ones) on Turn 100. I am certain no one was able to research Archery yet - someone may have been lucky with a goody hut, but that is doubtful as the exploration phase of the game is so short.

Anyway, the point is that FF has a definite difference from FFH in that in FFH the AI will not spawn/build units more advanced than those AI civs and the human player are producing.

It is especially tough with the Archers as they mostly fortify in the tile next to your city and just bombard. If is very hard to take them out with Centenis and the unit that begins with a V.

Again, no problem if for some reason the developers saw it necessary to ramp up the barb AI. I am able to deal with it OK, but AI civs are dropping like crazy. I am clearly destined for either a short Conquest Victory or a long drawn-out affair with the barbs as there is at least one Barbarian trait civ in the game.

To summarize the two main problems with raging barbs in FF .43:

1. The main barb force arrives far too early in slower speed games.

2. The AI is spawning/building stronger units much sooner than the AI civs and human player can.

 

[Sarisin]

This is the kind of thing I have been seeing since Turn 100 in my epic speed game. Not only is the AI batch spawning Archers, but most are coming with two promotions (usually the hill defense one) as well.

Again, this is only Monarch difficulty. I wonder what the heavy hitters who play FF raging barb games on tougher difficulties are seeing.

 

[Breez]

I just started my third FF .43 d game playing as Scions/Risen Emperor.

Again, I have to say that the AI for raging barbs is broken.

The main barb force came again on Turn 49 (epic speed). I expected that, but it ended the games exploration phase for awhile.

However, what I did NOT expect was for the AI to start spamming Archers (not the Goblin ones) on Turn 100. I am certain no one was able to research Archery yet - someone may have been lucky with a goody hut, but that is doubtful as the exploration phase of the game is so short.

Anyway, the point is that FF has a definite difference from FFH in that in FFH the AI will not spawn/build units more advanced than those AI civs and the human player are producing.

It is especially tough with the Archers as they mostly fortify in the tile next to your city and just bombard. If is very hard to take them out with Centenis and the unit that begins with a V.

Again, no problem if for some reason the developers saw it necessary to ramp up the barb AI. I am able to deal with it OK, but AI civs are dropping like crazy. I am clearly destined for either a short Conquest Victory or a long drawn-out affair with the barbs as there is at least one Barbarian trait civ in the game.

To summarize the two main problems with raging barbs in FF .43:

1. The main barb force arrives far too early in slower speed games.

2. The AI is spawning/building stronger units much sooner than the AI civs and human player can.

I just wanted to add that this resembles what I am experiencing, but I play on Noble still. 8 AI + me... down to just me with 2-3 Units with 150+ xp per city in 3 cities and the 1 AI with Barb trait, and the barbs have settles so much of the world there is no where for him to expand too.

 

[Sarisin]

I just wanted to add that this resembles what I am experiencing, but I play on Noble still. 8 AI + me... down to just me with 2-3 Units with 150+ xp per city in 3 cities and the 1 AI with Barb trait, and the barbs have settles so much of the world there is no where for him to expand too.

Yep, that's what you get in the FF raging barb games now.

Maybe it is the map size/type (which are you using?), but there is definitely something broken when it comes to using the raging barb option in FF. I don't think it has anything to do with the Barbarian Worlds option either.

Two things need tweaking:

1. When the main force of barbs arrive. Kael has them arrive when the civs average 1.5 cities. This is reasonable, not Turn 49 in an epic speed game. No exploration after that and AI civs are wiped out too fast.

2. More powerful barb units than the AI civs or human player can build are spawning/being built. Again, it makes it more tough on the AI civs which are mowed down in short order. It's nonsense to think the barbs could out-tech the other players - well, most of them anyway.

Honestly, you can still have a fun game with raging barbs. It is more of a challenge for the human player, though, and can get a bit monotonous as your game will be reduced to you and just a few other civs and tons of barbs, mostly settled in cities, as Breez said.

 

[Breez]

I was playing 1 step down from biggest Erbus map -10% mountains, Raging Barbs (my next game I won't to see the difference), I did NOT play barb world, on speed not the slowest but the next one up (I forget which is Epic and which is marathon), with no wrap around. Noble.

On an interseting sidenote... my 1st time playing the Erbus map. I got an unside down U shape with a small sea in the center on the U. I started at the north edge of the Sea and only ever built 3 cities myself. Took the rest from barbs. Eventually, I got enough to see there were only 3 passes thru the mountains (to my east) spliting the East side of the world from the West. By this time ALL the civs in the east were dead, and I had myselfin the north, the barb ally civ, and the Sicons in the west. I found that once I blocked all 3 passes (Archer, hunter, and 2 priests in each) ALL flow of barbs from that 1/2 the maps Stopped. I went from 6-8 barbs per turn flowing thru these passes to 2 wolf riders attacking my border force in 200 turns.

However they are now shipping units on 2 tiremes, 1 unit ever 3 turns gets dropped right next to my closest costal city.

*eidt: I am playing Patch A still untill my friend and I finish our multiplayer game. Also I am not conplaining by any means, I knew what I was getting into when I selected Raging Barbs. I am just filling in what I am seeing.

Personally I would love to see the barbs split up into a few different "tribes" as mentioned in anther thread so each tribe could target a different player instead of all on 1. Would help the AI survie I would think.

 

[Sarisin]

That's very interesting about them using ships to transport units around your blockade to your city. I never saw that before, but I use a map with very little water.

Yes, the key, if you can do it, is to seal off your civ using mountain peaks, small bodies of water, and units (I often use captured elephants) to stop the barbs from pounding you.

However, I've found that in games when I can do this instead of the expected happening (the barbs go on to someone else) the unexpected occurs (the barbs disappear or just defend their many cities). If you open up the blockade, they likely return.

Of course, you also get the occasional mounted barb unit attacking, but you seldom see a small stack of barb units trying to break your blockade by killing a single defender - 2 Lizardmen would easily bring down an Elephant defender opening up your blockade.

 

[xienwolf]

While it does annoy me (massively) to read so much feedback all focused on the Barbarians (who we have only barely touched so far) instead of our numerous working features (most of which we did add, some of which appeared on their own), I want to pipe in for people to make this thread as busy as they can. Soon here I will be rewritting quite a bit about how Barbarians are handled, so all of the information you can spill about how they work and how you think they SHOULD work is valuable.


Note however, that much of how you might want them to work is realistically impossible from the code perspective. But that doesn't mean it is ACTUALLY impossible, it just means that every gripe brought up won't neccessarily be addressed

 

[Tarquelne]

Note however, that much of how you might want them to work is realistically impossible from the code perspective.

A computer game designer I'm acquainted with used to annoy me by refusing to make a distinction between "impossible" and "impractical". Over the years, though, I've come to see his point as far as coding goes. The general meaning of "Impossible" doesn't have much value - too little is truly impossible - but an emphatic form of "Impractical" *is* handy to have around.

OTOH, if he'd just said "realistically impossible" in the first place...

 

[tharg]

Soon here I will be rewritting quite a bit about how Barbarians are handled, so all of the information you can spill about how they work and how you think they SHOULD work is valuable.

A few suggestionsm, maybe some already apply:

I think there should be a distance cut out, so barbarians pick a target within a set distance.

Barbarians should have some concept of how easy a city is, and pick the weakest defended ones.

If the chance of taking all cities is below a certain threshold, they should concentrate on pillaging instead.

Have a barbarian unit with Bombard ability. Giants or something.

 

[Breez]

instead of our numerous working features (most of which we did add, some of which appeared on their own)

I would love too, but just commented on the thread started already.

I think so much feedback on Barbs for 2 reasons...

1. They are a large change over previous versions. So many games they are THE number one opponent.
2. They are common issue across all maps, races, and difficulty levels. IE they are in EVERYONE'S game.

However I would love to feedback on a different topic, I really haven't played much and usually just try a new race out. Help me pick one you need feedback on and I will do it. I need to start a new game tomorrow anyway...

 

[Sarisin]

While it does annoy me (massively) to read so much feedback all focused on the Barbarians (who we have only barely touched so far) instead of our numerous working features (most of which we did add, some of which appeared on their own), I want to pipe in for people to make this thread as busy as they can. Soon here I will be rewritting quite a bit about how Barbarians are handled, so all of the information you can spill about how they work and how you think they SHOULD work is valuable.


Note however, that much of how you might want them to work is realistically impossible from the code perspective. But that doesn't mean it is ACTUALLY impossible, it just means that every gripe brought up won't neccessarily be addressed

Fair enough, xienwolf. However, the main point I am making (you couldn't have missed it) is that in these two areas (barbs coming too soon and barbs ahead of AI civs/human player with stronger units) there is a significant difference with FFH. Now, I realize FF is not FFH and vice versa. However, when one has it right and one has it wrong IMHO, why not just defer to the other?

As to a lot of feedback on Barbarians, I'm not sure what you mean? You don't think you are getting feedback in other areas? This is just one thread in the forum which focuses on one issue - Barbarians. There are others.

Do you really want a bunch of attaboys telling you how great the working features are? OK, this is a truly fun and interesting modmod and I love all the numerous working features. Is that really helpful feedback? Trust me, everyone here realizes the hard work the developers are putting in with this modmod and it is greatly appreciated. You know no one is complaining or . .. .. .. .. .in' here - we are just suggesting.

You will continue to get feedback on how the barbs are working - don't worry about that. I am a real dunderhead when it comes to knowing what is codable or not, so if it cannot be done or is too much a pain in the ass, just say so. Issued closed.

I think the problem some have, including me, in this forum and the FFH main forum is that often a bug/suggestion/question is raised and totally ignored. No one knows if it can be done or not or if you are simply being ignored. No one expects a job number assigned to each bug brought up with daily progress reports, but I'm just saying it is a little discouraging to take the time to report something and then ... nothing.

And, now I'd like to give you a little feedback about Diplomacy in FF....

 

[deadliver]

Xienwolf, I have almost never commented on the FF devs features, but my opinion on the barb factor is:

SUCK IT UP.

Thanks for the cool mod mod.

 

[Sarisin]

Whoa, first time I have ever had a post censored here. Didn't know the word I used was out of bounds.

I should have just said complaining instead of the b-word.

Apologies.