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Barbarian cities in Civ 3

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Civinator, May 28, 2019.

  1. Takeo

    Takeo Shogun

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    It's the forum we are in- Creation & Customization.:)
     
  2. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    ^Yup. Once upon a time it was the only place on CFC I ever entered, so I just logged in through the C&C page -IIRC it was forum #160.
     
  3. Blake00

    Blake00 King Supporter

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    Ah right.. thought you were talking about the other C&C hahaha. Been hunting for Command & Conquer Civ mods lol.
     
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  4. Takeo

    Takeo Shogun

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    Funny thing is back the first time I ever saw someone post a message with 'C&C' in it, I immediately thought of Command & Conquer. Lot of fond memories of days long past with that game!
     
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  5. Adrain

    Adrain Warlord

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    I was wondering how Command & Conquer came into the discussion too, but all clear now :-D
     
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  6. Belofon

    Belofon Chieftain

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    A little [offtopic] but mostly regarding the same matter: it seems that barbarians use same mechanics as normal civs, since they can not only have their own cities (though, as you said, their cities are glitchy), but they also can conduct diplomacy with normal civs! Once barbs have contacted one of them via diplomacy, this civ can conduct diplomacy with barbarians as well.
    Barb Diplomacy.png

    Here is a screenshot of my current game in Civinator's mod RARR. As you can see, an enigmatic barbarian leader looks like weird static version of your current leader (in my case this is Hammurabi; such a sight quite often leads to crash) - however, sometimes it looks like empty black space (in F4 barbarians always look like default random civ). Unfortunately, such a diplomacy is also glitchy, since proposals from barbarians/to barbarians aren't seen to recipient as are proposals from normal hotseat human civs. I don't know how such diplomacy works with AI, though: after all, it is possible to interact with destroyed civs (they come under AI control) if they have surviving flag units and even give them cities, so I think that barbarian diplomacy with AI can work in similar way...
    Update: it seems that barbarians CAN make deals with AI-controled civs:
    AI Barb Diplomacy Initial.png
    AI Barb Diplomacy.png

    Too bad barbarians have almost nothing to offer to AIs :dunno:...
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  7. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Great find Belofon. :)
    May be blood, sweat and tears could work ? :D
     
  8. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    Do barbarians actually use worker actions?
     
  9. Adrain

    Adrain Warlord

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    They don't generally have workers. If they're given any I have no idea what they'd do with them.

    The question then becomes :
    Do Barbarian workers work when Barbarians have cities?
    Do Barbarian workers work when they have no cities?

    The latter should be easy enough to determine. The former requires a game or scenario where Barbarian cities have been set up and I have none of those, nor are they quick or easy to set up as I recall.
     
  10. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    A third question would be what do barbarians do with their traditional barbarian camps and do they connect their cities to them? Does or would it change anything?
     
  11. Adrain

    Adrain Warlord

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    For question 2 I can say that in my test they just stood around doing nothing.

    I would not expect any civilisation to be set up in such a way as to work with Barbarian camps. Logically, as far as the original designers were concerned, these were utterly outside of the concept of a civilisation. If they'd been considering the whole idea of Barbarians taking cities and developing them then I would have expected to see designs within the game to support this. Instead what we see are devious beggars, like those of us in here, who are playing around with the boundaries of what it can do.

    Barbarians becoming civilisations is one thing. They behave similarly to other civilisations as that's what the game is set up to do. I doubt there's anything in there to handle Barbarian civilisations specifically.

    Does that make sense?
     
  12. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    As written in post 1 of this thread, the 'Barbarian civ' when played by a human can perform all kind of worker jobs. I have not tested the workers when the Barbarian civ is switched back to the AI, but my guess is, that in this case workers cannot perform anything, as this was the result with AI Barbarian settlers.

    As also written in post 1 of this thread, Barbarian cities have a cultural radius of zero, meaning there is no 'fat cross' for Barbarian cities. Barbarian camps placed next to the Barbarian city are the only option to provide the Barbarian city with not preplaced Barbarian units. A connection from the Barbarian city to the Barbarian camp is not necessairy.

    As it can be seen in a screenshot in post 1 of this thread, even forming colonies next to a Barbarian city is possible for a human player when playing the Barbarians.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
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  13. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    In this post I have attached a save file with Barbarian cities set in standard C3C (not in my mod CCM2), that can be used easily for testings in combination with the multiplayer tool.
     
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  14. Adrain

    Adrain Warlord

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    Internally, the LEAD (Leader) code for Barbarians is zero (0). This is also the code in the CulteralOwnership for a TILE that indicates no ownership. Thus, there is no way for Barbarian cities to have any cultural ownership :-(

    The best you can manage is to ensure no other LEAD is specified for the TILEs that surround the CITY, and especially the TILE the CITY occupies of course.
     
  15. Blake00

    Blake00 King Supporter

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    This is great guys.. Soon I'll be releasing my Civ1, Civ2, Civ2ToT, AlphaC, & CTP2 play as Barbarian scenarios/saves as part of a series I'm doing and I'd been meaning to dig up this thread and my old experiments that lead Civinator making this thread so I could do some more experimenting with the Barbs in Civ3 to continue the series. Wit hthe help of others I've had small but interesting breakthroughs with taking 'some' control of Indians in Colonization and neutrals in Master of Magic.. however still no luck with CTP1 Barbs though due to editor limitations and lack of save hacking info sadly.
     
  16. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    I sigh in frustration at the limitations of the Xenforo software. One mis-click and I've seen the last half-hour of writing be swallowed by the æther, so here goes a clumsy reconstruction of my better- and more extensively-written post:
    If you can test it, post the results.
    I'm not going to offer to do so myself because I've already offered to test two scenarios for Civ 3 as well as my own modding.
    Looking at said screenshot again, I have some questions that might help guide future research:
    Can the tile with the colony be worked?
    Do the barbarian camps allow for extraction of a resource placed there? Do they allow for roads and such?
    Also I see that they are marked as ‘A barbarian chiefdom’. Are all tribes loyal to said chief i.e. the player?
     
  17. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Unfortunately at present I don´t have that time either. Here are the answers to your questions, as far as I could remember it:

    Yes, it can.

    a) The Barbarian cities don´t receive any resources, even when that resource is connected to a Barbarian city.
    b) A human playing the Barbarians can build roads.

    Yes, the human player has control over all Barbarians on the map.
     
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  18. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    It is amazing how I have less time for things now that I'm confined to my home. I hope it's not too bad on your side of the ocean.
    Not even when the barbarian city is placed directly on top of a resource?

    This might help (I'm thinking out loud a bit). I've long thought of having a scenario in which there are one or two large land-based empires and then the player chooses between thalassocracies that have one large productive city and maybe some far-flung colonies whence they draw treasure units. I was thinking of having a pirate faction which would be drawn to attack the land-based empires. I still think the actual pirates would have to be a full AI faction, but the possibility of preplacing Barbarian-owned cities for the fantasyland equivalent of the ‘scramble for Africa’ already opens up new, exciting ideas.

    Hence, can Barbarians be made to have a preset alliance with an existing civ? That would make one player a barbarian-assisted civ.
     

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